|Archive 1: Feb 2005 - Apr 2011|
- 1 Seth
- 2 Pantheon Redesign
- 3 Ebonarm
- 4 What about the Orsmer?
- 5 Consistency in reference to assimilations/related gods
- 6 Table Change
- 7 not a true distinction
- 8 Miraak?
- 9 Orkey is Arkay or Malacath?
- 10 Blessings of the Eight quest (Online)
- 11 Concerning new info and small tid-bits...
- 12 What about the All-Maker
- 13 Page Merges
- 14 Ius
- 15 Table
- 16 Orkey as counterpart to Arkay
- 17 Magrus missing from table
- 18 Malak
- 19 Masser and Secunda
- 20 Akatosh in Nordic pantheon
We might want to consider adding "Seth" as the object of a Tamrielic cult. Don't know anything about him or the group, except that the group was apparently involved in a Daggerfall quest or something, and the "Brotherhood of Seth" controlled at least one town in Black Marsh. Minor EditsThreats•Evidence 18:26, 17 March 2012 (UTC)
- The thing about Seth worshippers controlling Gideon comes from here, if you're interested. --Legoless 13:59, 18 March 2012 (UTC)
Maybe it's just me, but the chart looks absolutely horrid. I can take it upon myself to redesign the whole mess, but I'm still learning the ins and outs of it all. It seems, (and please, correct any mistakes), that certain things can be said:
- Gods are mostly either Anuic or Padomaic.
- Heroes (i.e. Talos) were apotheosized by an existing deity or by service in the name of an existing deity.
- Many gods listed are just culturally relevant names of the same gods or "aspects" of other gods. (i.e. Kyne and Kynareth)
- And, at the very least, they can be listed effectively in a tree if an anchor god is chosen.
Perhaps some of the senior editors here can shed some light if I'm missing some integral part of this.126.96.36.199 10:12, 26 March 2012 (UTC)
- Long story short, there are enough cans of worms here to open a bait shop. The current chart is not particularly elegant, but I don't know of a better arrangement that could be agreed upon.
- To address some of your concerns, the page already mentions Anu and Padomay and how many deities can be categorically attributed to one or the other. I don't think all deities easily fit into this dichotomy, however, so I doubt it would work well as a distinguishing factor for a chart.
- Exactly how and why a mortal becomes a deity is something we don't really address much because we know very, very little about it. Speculation on it should be kept to a minimum in my opinion. In any given case, they may have gotten help, earned their divine status all on their own through unknown feats, stolen divine power, or even a weird combination of all three. There's also the chance with many of them (if not most) that they're not divine beings at all, even though some on Tamriel came to call them gods. It's also possible that we players have misinterpreted in-game sources which were exaggerating when they referred to an entity as a "god".
- One of the things the current chart does well is distinguishing the pantheons, which is necessary because there's a lot of dispute, both in the game and outside of it, about how some deities may relate to each other. The chart's arrangement makes it clear that some deities are thought to be related without resorting to guesswork about how they are associated with each other.
- As for an "anchor god" approach, I'm not precisely sure what you mean, but I would imagine that trying to choose an anchor could be problematic. It seems like it would involve subordinating one culture's beliefs to those of another culture, and we have no basis for making those kinds of judgments.
- Anyways, if you think another design can better convey what is known without inappropriate speculation or stating as fact matters which are disputed or ambiguous, you should make a rough draft in a sandbox and then return here. If you can garner a consensus that your approach would be more helpful to the reader, I'm sure some of the more experienced editors will help spruce up and implement it. Minor EditsThreats•Evidence 01:54, 28 March 2012 (UTC)
- Very good points. I'm working my way through each of the articles to see what could be done. Prioritizing the nomenclature is definitely an issue, but the more I read through it, the more it definitely seems like it's possible to do.188.8.131.52 02:46, 28 March 2012 (UTC)
What about Ebonarm? He's a pretty big deal in the Iliac Bay region and is still mentioned in every major divinity's page as being one of their enemies. Yes, he's never mentioned again after Daggerfall, but considering that the Hammerfell Fighter's Guild was apparently constructed as a series of mosques in his honor, he's a major player in the Redguard pantheon who hates every daedra but Sheogorath and most of the Aedra. Why do we include obscure one-offs like Leki but not Ebonarm?Black jack king 13:20, 11 June 2012 (UTC)
- We have an article on Ebonarm. Add him to the table if you wish. —Legoless 14:58, 11 June 2012 (UTC)
What about the Orsmer?
The Orcs have a pantheon and culture too and neglecting the Orcs is making this table of equivalent deities pretty absurd. It has Mauloch listed as a Nord Orc God equivalent of Malacath. While the real and TES worlds are filled with discrimination and racism, as a wiki, should not this site strive to provide a more egalitarian source of information that does not neglect the "Pig Children" ? — Unsigned comment by 184.108.40.206 (talk) at 10:11 on 13 August 2012
- It does state on the page that "Finally, Orsimer gods are not listed as they don't have a specific province, but instead a kingdom in the High Rock - Orsinium. Although Orsimer Gods are not listed, they predominantly worship Malacath and/or Trinimac." Also I believe Mauloch is Malacath? — Kimi the Elf (talk | contribs) 10:27, 13 August 2012 (UTC)
- the Osrmer are still an individual people worthy of individual notation. Malacath is only listed as a Dunmer God or a Tamriel Cult. The major difference between a cult and a religion is the derision and discrimination between Us and Them, such as worshipers of the Dragon Cult even though Dragon worship was the predominant religion in it's time.
- is there substantiation that the Daedric Prince Malacath is the Mountain Fart, or is it pure speculation being presented as fact? Citation of resources and clarification is badly need on the wiki. the Lore entry on Malacath also lists his name as "Orkey" which would make him also that other mortal-turned-Divine, the Aedra Arkay.
- Look at this from a cultural anthropology standpoint. On or earth most cultures will have found or made deities of primal ideals but the Hawaiian goddess Pele is not the Greek Prometheus or the Hindu Agni.
- Malacath being Malak, Mauloch and Malooc as well as somehow still being (Orkey/Arkay) would also make him the only Daedra of the Hammerfall/Redgaurd pantheon- which is pretty unlikely. Names that sound alike are not enough to substantiate a claim. To say that a deity has been assimilated into a culture we really need a more than someone pointing and saying look, they're both smelly and ugly.
- The Orsmer worship Daedra, first and foremost Malacath but their pantheon is much as the Dunmer being Daedra or Daedra Plus.
- If the Dunmer have their own listing, so should the Orsmer.
- Orkey is not Arkay, just because they sound similar does not make them the same person. Malacath is named Orkey here but i cannot find any reference to Arkay ever being called Orkey. Malacath is called Mauloch here. I cant think of any sources off hand that say the Orcs worship anyone other than Malacath, however it is well known that the dunmer worship many of the daedra so im not sure why you think the dunmer should not be on the page. — Kimi the Elf (talk | contribs) 08:13, 17 August 2012 (UTC)
- Looking at the article is does seem we list Orkey as the skyrim Arkay. however i cannot find any references to back this up. The only thing i could find that even mentioned them both was here but it does not say they are the same person. Unless i missed somthing I think it should be changed to Arkay. — Kimi the Elf (talk | contribs) 08:30, 17 August 2012 (UTC)
- Varieties of Faith makes it pretty clear that Orkey is supposed to be some strange fusion of Malacath and Arkay. —Legoless 10:49, 17 August 2012 (UTC)
Just noticed that some, but not all, god entries list and link to the equivalent gods for the other races as listed in the pantheon table in the main Gods page. For example the T'sun entry lists the Altmeri, Bosmeri and Yokudan equivalents of T'sun, and suggests Zenithar as an equivalent too.
This referencing is a bit patchy - some articles include all equivalents, some include one or two, and some make no reference to equivalents. I just was wondering if a clean-up could be initiated to keep these references neat and consistent across all deity entries. We could either:
• Ensure that all god equivalents are listed in every god article (which could look a bit long winded)
• Remove all reference to equivalents in every god article, meaning the Pantheon on the Overview page is the only and definitive source for matching equivalent gods across races (cleanest, but not as user-friendly for people browsing the Gods pages without starting at the Overview)
• Include a link to the equivalent Imperial god in the articles for every non-Imperial god, and then include a link to each equivalent non-Imperial god in the Imperial god articles. For example, articles like Zeht would link to Zenithar, but not to Z'en or any of the other equivalents. Zenithar would then briefly list a link to all associated gods (Zeht, Z'en, etc). I personally think this is the best compromise between efficient and user-friendly, as the Imperial deity will be the most familiar to players who want to know more about the religion of the game, and would be a good branching point for them to see the various incarnations of an individual god.
I'd like to propose a change concerning the Orsimer. I think "This table contains all names of beings worshipped on the nine provinces of Tamriel." would suit better than "This table contains all names of beings worshipped by the nine major races in Tamriel." as the table seem more province based than race based. 220.127.116.11 02:17, 10 November 2012 (GMT)
- I moved this, as it is only indirectly related to the Orsimer. You raise a good point, but I would sooner change the column headings than I would that sentence. After all, Skyrim, for example, doesn't worship anything; it's a place. It's the Nords who do the worshiping. I'm fairly certain the separation by province is derived from the province-based pantheons presented in Varieties of Faith in the Empire, but perhaps this is just one more inaccuracy from that book we should correct by putting the Race at the top of the column and the province, if applicable, underneath in parentheses. If we did that, the Orcs should probably have their own column. It won't have many entries on it, but it's certainly better than clumping them into the cults column, especially since Skyrim has given us more information on their belief system. Minor EditsThreats•Evidence 02:34, 10 November 2012 (GMT)
not a true distinction
Sorry, Legoless, but the sentence "these are the gods who refused to help create Mundus" definitely tells about Daedric Princes (gods), not about all daedra. Phoenix Neko (talk) 17:25, 2 December 2012 (GMT)
- No, all Daedra are the same type of being. Daedra means, "Not our ancestors", lesser Aedra became the the Earthbones and took part in creation, but are still Aedra, even if unnamed. So lesser Daedra who did not are their opposites, just as the Divines are to the Princes.--Br3admax (talk) 17:30, 2 December 2012 (GMT)
- This is the Elder Scrolls. There are no real "gods", simply spirits whom amass a certain amount of worship and power, like in this source. If enough people worshiped random any random Daedra enough, it may gain power. To mortals, anyone of these spirits can become a god. And even Storm Atronachs have been worshiped before. If you want to go into theory of what a ES "god" is or not go to the forums; I'd be happy to discuss it with you there.--Br3admax (talk) 01:23, 3 December 2012 (GMT)
- I'd like too, but my limited capability to communicate in English could be a mess. I somethat agree. But if your theory that only worshipped/revered gods are real gods is right, it should be described in the main article (but as I know, forgotten gods do not appear to stop being gods). And the main article tells "Generally, there are several distinct groups into which the various gods fall", and lesser daedra don't appear to belong to any of such groups (especially to the group of "the original spirits" - they could be the piece of particular Daedric Prince, but it's not the same thing). I suggest to describe the difference more clearly or/and to describe another group of gods to which lesser daedra could belong to (if they grow to the power level of "normal" god). I'm so sorry again for my broken English...I agree, but if that story is not simply a tale (to speak strictly, this tale doesn't tell if Vernaccus rose to the godhood, it tells he was just worshipped, but still he never got the power comparatible to that of any another god), such occasion is still rare. It would be better if such cases would be properly described in the main article. Phoenix Neko (talk) 17:28, 4 December 2012 (GMT)
- Please just keep all of the posts in chronological order. Also you don't need to apologize. Read the Monomyth. Daedric Lords became powerful, not because of their god-ness, but because they built up power from their worshipers, amassed more pieces of Oblivion into their bodies, and made their own worshipers. In the Elder Scrolls, you can not compare the word "god" to how it is used in our world. There are spirits, and nothing else.--Br3admax (talk) 18:07, 4 December 2012 (GMT)
- Fair point. What of the Dragon Cult - they worshiped dragons in general, or do you think Alduin covers that? --Jimeee (talk) 14:52, 11 April 2013 (GMT)
Orkey is Arkay or Malacath?
Lore:Orkey says it's a name for Malacath, but it's put alongside Arkay on this page. We should probably bring the two pages into agreement one way or the other. Xolroc (talk) 01:15, 25 October 2013 (GMT)
- The result of some muddled editing has been fixed on this page. An anon came along and attempted some edits but made a mess, resulting in two entries for Orkey. This was "rectified" by another user almost a year later who spotted two entries and removed one of them; unfortunately the wrong one. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 01:53, 25 October 2013 (GMT)
- BOTH Mauloch and Orkey are names used by the Nords to refer to Malacath (for example, see, in addition to the above: Lore:Varieties_of_Faith...). Currently Orkey is for some reason listed as a separate entry with no analogues; this is clearly wrong, but the page is locked so I can't fix it myself. --Pokari (talk) 00:34, 29 April 2014 (GMT)
- Done. — TheRealLurlock (talk) 02:16, 29 April 2014 (GMT)
- Although, come to think of it, in your above link, I do see Orkey listed in the same position where Arkay is listed for other groups. Is it possible that Orkey is both Arkay AND Malacath? And in that case could we imply that Arkay is Malacath also? There would be only one other collision in the table if we were to combine the rows, but I'm not sure if it's justified in lore to do so. We need a lore expert... — TheRealLurlock (talk) 02:21, 29 April 2014 (GMT)
Blessings of the Eight quest (Online)
The Blessings of the Eight quest has yet another list of the eight divines (shrines for them are in the Ayleid ruin called Torinaan). I am not sure how they should be incorporated into this.— Unsigned comment by Swordmage (talk • contribs)
- Very interesting. Its seems that this is some more solid proof that Ayleids worshipped some Divines (along with Magnus and Meridia). Minor Edits was working on this a while back and we agreed that worship of the Divines was likely. Now we have a full pantheon, so I see no reason not to add this to the page. --Jimeee (talk) 10:27, 19 May 2014 (GMT)
- On a similar note can we move Xarxes to the same row as Arkay given the book Tu'whacca, Arkay, Xarxes and move Orkey out of the Mauloch category as the connection between Arkay and Orkey is stronger (I'm not saying they are't the 'same' in god terms, merely that the table isn't dynamic enough to handle every connection between gods...)
- Also add Anu and/or Anui-El to the Altmer pantheon (preferably separately) as they certainly have a mythic role (in the [pre-]Dawn) where as the Dunmeri Saints don't)
- Finally apologies if this doesn't show up properly, I can't preview my edit properly :( Sardeth42 (talk) 12:48, 14 June 2014 (GMT)
- The quest journal entries mention Auri-El, but the map image mentions a shrine to Anu. Which is it? Insignificant RevisionsThreats•Evidence 14:47, 14 June 2014 (GMT)
- I am just speculating, but Varities of Faith in the Empire states that Auri-El is the soul of Anuiel, who is himself the soul of Anu. Its possible the aylieds understood this and just used Anu = Aka/Anui-El. Quote from Variates of Faith below SajuukKhar (talk)`
- Auri-El (King of the Aldmer): The Elven Akatosh is Auri-El. Auri-El is the soul of Anui-El, who, in turn, is the soul of Anu the Everything. — Unsigned comment by SajuukKhar (talk • contribs) at 16:47 on 14 June 2014 (GMT)
- The quest journal entries mention Auri-El, but the map image mentions a shrine to Anu. Which is it? Insignificant RevisionsThreats•Evidence 14:47, 14 June 2014 (GMT)
Concerning new info and small tid-bits...
The book Words of Clan Mother Ahnissi talks of Ja-Kha'jay and Nirni, I can understand the former being left out, but could we add Nirni, even if she doesn't have an article, it would still acknowledge her existence. The book Tu'whacca, Arkay, Xarxes also equates the titular gods... Is this not considered enough information to add their rows together? Sardeth42 (talk) 12:48, 17 June 2014 (GMT)
- I am going to have to say no to Nirni. She is just personification of the land, like Ja-Kha'jay is personification of the Lunar Lattice. To me, that is not enough to warrant inclusion. ~ Ad intellige (talk) 05:27, 14 July 2014 (GMT)
What about the All-Maker
We should add the All-Maker (And possibly the adversary) as a tamriel cult
- They aren't really a cult. They are a local religion. There is a difference in that cults tend to pop up and go away, while the All-Maker worship has been consistent all along. Jeancey (talk) 18:11, 28 July 2014 (GMT)
- As a religion then? It is reduced to a local religion but it is hinted that it was more spread out trough the ancestors of the Nords.
Due to most of the Gods either having relatively small articles, or no articles at all and are stuffed into a list with other Gods starting with the same letter, would it be appropriate to merge the pages of the Gods that are the same being but known under a different name (like Akatosh/Auriel/Auri-El, Kyn/Kynareth, Shor/Lorkhan, etc), but have all historical/mythical information split into different categories (not unlike the Orthodoxy/Hersey categories on the Lore:Tiber_Septim page) --Rezalon (talk) 10:53, 25 May 2015 (UTC)
- There's a difference between the gods and Tiber; there only ever was one Tiber with the opinions being over his background, while the gods have different ideals (for lack of a better word) associated with them by the different cultures. We wouldn't merge Akatosh and Alduin, despite ingame allegations that they are the same thing. Think of the Greek and Roman gods, they could also be placed beside each other on a table (Zeus/Jupiter, Eros/Cupid, Hades/Pluto, Poseidon/Neptune) but you wouldn't expect to see their wikipedia entries merged. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 11:39, 25 May 2015 (UTC)
- Well put. There are a couple topics which are merged, but it's generally due to lack of information. For instance, Sheggorath redirects to Sheogorath. When and if we get more information on Sheggorath, it'll probably get its own page. After all, Khajiit maintain that their demons are wholly different than the Daedra of other cultures. Anyway, things like Akatosh and Auri-El; they're manifestations or aspects of the same thing, but that does not make them the same being. Insignificant RevisionsThreats•Evidence 15:40, 25 May 2015 (UTC)
"Ius, who is mostly an easter egg."
Orkey as counterpart to Arkay
In ESO we see Orkey as the counterpart to Arkay in the Nordic pantheon, quoting from a loading screen: "Windhelm, like most Nord cities, has a Hall of the Dead where bodies are interred, overseen by a Priest of Orkey who ensures that corpses are properly consecrated and cared for", and inside the Hall of the Dead there is a Priest of Orkey, serving the same function as Priests of Arkay in TESV, so I think it would be safe to edit Orkey out of the Malacath line, where he is side by side with Mauloch, and put him in the Akray line (I don't have an account and wished to see if you guys agreed with this edit).
--18.104.22.168 23:05, 15 July 2016 (UTC)
- Might want to keep him in both, since he seems to be a combination of the two. —Legoless (talk) 23:28, 15 July 2016 (UTC)
Magrus missing from table
- Not for any discernible reason I can see. I've added him to the table. —Legoless (talk) 12:24, 20 July 2016 (UTC)
Masser and Secunda
I have never heard Khajiit refer to the moons by these names. I've only ever heard them call them Jone and Jode. I thought Masser and Secunda were the Imperial names for the moons. — Unsigned comment by Spaz (talk • contribs) at 03:34 on 1 July 2017 (UTC)
Akatosh in Nordic pantheon
Why is Akatosh included in the Nordic pantheon? More to that, why is he there as separate from Alduin? Regardless of their identities, the two are regarded as the same being under different names by everyone except an uneducated Nord. And nothing points to Akatosh as being part of the traditional Nordic pantheon. Andrefortes (talk) 16:33, 13 October 2018 (UTC)
- I'm not sure where you've got your information, but Akatosh is recognised as a separate entity to Alduin by the people of Skyrim, it is those outside Skyrim that appear to have confused the names, though the Nords have never held them to have similar traits. The Alduin/Akatosh Dichotomy is the perfect example of this, the author clearly recognises that the Nords separate them, then contrary to the evidence simply assumes the Nords are idiots and states that the evidence has to be wrong because it doesn't fit the outcome he wanted. This perfectly explains why other sources like Varieties of Faith are incorrect, which you can see also says they barely resemble each other in Nord beliefs but still assumes that they must be the same. Even more evidence can be found in the game; Akatosh shrines are everywhere, and are one of the nine when all nine appear, but there are none for Alduin. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 18:08, 13 October 2018 (UTC)