Skyrim talk:Speech

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Archive 1: Oct 2011 - Jul 2012

Is investing really needed to sell stolen goods?[edit]

I could sell stolen goods to normal merchants but I never invested in anyone. I did quests for them though, and it appeared they liked me. Could this affect anything? — Unsigned comment by 109.99.107.212 (talk) at 02:24 on 1 December 2011

Are the goods really stolen? It's worth noting that once you do one or two quests for any particular person, they will start to like you enough that you're able to take just about everything (barring one or two items) from their houses without repercussion. Items that the game classes as 'stolen' are those which said 'steal' in red when you picked them up, or whose name was red when taken from a container.
You can identify these items in two ways: either go through your inventory and check each item to see if the word 'stolen' appears at the bottom of the window under the picture of the item, or simply dump everything into a container you own and see if any items show up in red lettering.
To answer your question, you do need to invest to sell stolen goods. You can only sell stolen goods once you have the 'Fence' perk, and the description of that perk in game is "Can barter stolen goods with any merchant you have invested in." - so if you're somehow managing to sell stolen items without investing in the store first then it's probably the effects of a bug/glitch or maybe a mod as the intended behaviour is clear. 31.111.99.138 22:26, 1 August 2012 (UTC)
I can confirm this behaviour. With legendary skills made availible, i got many skill points to spend. I invested in Allure, Merchant, Investor, Fence and Master Trader, all at once. Since then all merchants buy my stolen goods, even though I have not yet invested in any. 82.242.106.213 08:28, 26 March 2013 (GMT)
I have also experienced some new glitch/bug with this. After resetting my speech I was able to sell stolen items to merchants I had not invested in, I think to merchants that could not be invested in as well. I don't know if resetting speech,leveling back up to 100, and then taking all perks at once is a trigger like the person above experienced, or if just resetting speech while having the perks is a trigger. Ice (talk) 23:36, 13 May 2013 (GMT)
It seems that, (at least with my save on the XBox 360) once you have the Fence perk, any merchant will purchase stolen goods. The perk says it's only ones invested in but that doesn't seem to be the case. Can this be more rigorously tested, confirmed, and added to the main page? Zuuk Cyrodiil (talk) 23:09, 16 November 2013 (GMT)

() I added a bug note to the article. If someone can determine what the exact conditions are to trigger this, that would be great. --Xyzzy Talk 15:17, 19 November 2013 (GMT)

I have now reset (Legendary) my speech skill twice since the previous post and can confirm that the Fence perk should read "Can barter stolen goods with any merchant." Investment only changes the gold available for bartering. (And maybe disposition but someone else will have to test that one. I have done far too many favors and investments to be certain.) --Zuuk (talk) 07:42, 9 January 2014 (GMT)

Prices possible formula errors[edit]

I'm an old math teacher and I can tell you if an algebraic expression has 8 leading parentheses '(' then it must have 8 closing parentheses ')'. I cannot get these formulas to work, that is match up with in game experience on a spreadsheet. Could someone with access to these formulas provide the parentheses, please. Kalevala 22:49, 13 January 2012 (UTC)

Update: after a lot of trial and error I came up with some corrections that made things work better, including extra parentheses in the buy price modifier and removing those in the final sell price and buy price formulas.

This leaves only the case of having a necklace, the Masque of Clavicus Vile and drinking a potion of fortify barter with regard to its effect on the buy from merchant price. The formula seems to give a lower buy price than the game experience, so I will continue to work on it. However, that said, my request above still stands with regard to checking the formulas, especially as to the summing of the equipment fortifies. Any help will be appreciated. Kalevala 02:15, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

i'm really sure that the formulars we currently have here are not complete/correct.
example:
with the given equations of
  • price factor = 3.3 - (1.3 * skill/100)
  • buy price modifier = (1 / (1 + Haggling %)) * (1 / (1 + Allure %)) * (1 - Fortify Barter from potion) * (1 - the sum of Fortify Barter from equipment - Fortify Barter *from Blessing of Zenithar)
  • buy price = [ value of item ] * base price factor * buy price modifier
  • for buying an amethyst e.g. (value 120) i (speechskill 90, haggling perk 1 (10%), allure perk, but male pc vs. male vendor, no potions, no eqipment, no blessing) should be charged:
  • pf = 3.3 - (1.3 * 90/100) = 2,13
  • bpm = (1 / (1 + 0,1)) * (1 / (1 + 0)) * (1 - 0) * (1 - 0 - 0) = 0,90909 * 1 * 1 * 1 = 0,90909
  • bp = 120 * 2,13 * 0,90909 = 232
but the vendor is actually selling it for 198. so either i have some hidden bonus of about 17% somewhere (not showing up in the "active effects") or the fact that i helped that vendor before in a small quest does influence his price... however, i just can't seem to find the reason, so could anyone with access to the game's internal formulars plz correct / complete them equations here? — Unsigned comment by 85.178.185.123 (talk) at 11:19 on 22 April 2012
The formulae on the site are just users' best guesses. Unfortunately, they aren't in the Creation Kit, so the only way of determining what they are with 100% certainty is to reverse-engineer the game code. Only a very few users are highly skilled at that sort of thing, and others like myself dabble...but I don't think we have anything more than dabblers on the site, so it will likely be a long time before the exact formula is discovered, if ever. Robin Hoodtalk 19:20, 22 April 2012 (UTC)
Prices vary from merchant to merchant. I found that the teachers in the College of Winterhold offer 10% more for a necklace than four other merchants that I tried. However, Enthir offers far less. The prices don't correlate with relationshiprank. Biggus1 04:26, 2 May 2012 (UTC)
Did you donate to a beggar or use any Zenithar equipment/altars? Beggars give you +10 Speech for an hour, and Zenithar's blessing and amulet each give a 10% price bonus. Don't know who made the original price factor equation but it looked like they tried to shoehorn the setting values into other titles' formulas. The equation here is different from previous ES/Fallout games. Anyway, I've updated it so at least that's correct. If I'm feeling less lazy later, I may check the full formula out. Sortitus 22:22, 24 May 2012 (UTC)
We ran into the same problem with the formulas today, and our solution was to not use 10% as Allure perk value, but 9.5898% (this is with 10% Haggling). I would not be surprised if the game rounds up % displays to the next ten percent; which means that higher Haggling perks could run into a similar issue. — Unsigned comment by 71.34.150.204 (talk) at 22:16 on 5 August 2012
I think there's a simpler explanation for the discrepancy, because I also just noticed that the buy formula did not match what I saw in-game. And then I noticed that, when you compare the buy and sell factors, the effects of Haggling and Allure are inverted differently than Fortify Barter: they're all "(1+bonus)" for the sell modifier, but Haggling and Allure are "1/(1+bonus)" for the buy modifier while Fortify Barter is "(1-bonus)". When I change my equation to use "1-bonus" everywhere, then my buy formula result matches what I see in game. So, I believe the correct formulas are actually:
sell price modifier = (1 + Haggling %) * (1 + Allure %) * (1 + Fortify Barter from potion) * (1 + the sum of Fortify Barter from equipment + Fortify Barter from Blessing of Zenithar)
buy price modifier = (1 - Haggling %) * (1 - Allure %) * (1 - Fortify Barter from potion) * (1 - the sum of Fortify Barter from equipment - Fortify Barter from Blessing of Zenithar)
taleden 05:00 9 November 2013 (GMT)

Patch notes[edit]

The patch seems to have changed the bee and barb persuasion spamming. If you choose that option twice in a row, he says "take a look" and shows you his merchant chest without the pointer actually resetting to that option. This remains true even if you move the pointer. I don't know if it's just me affected, though, so I didn't add anything. 173.219.77.134 00:00, 11 August 2012 (UTC)

Actually this is pretty obviously a glitch. Moving the pointer down one will move the dialogue into the speech. For the record what I means is this:
You go into the menu and talk to him. You choose the second option "Tell me about Maven Black-Briar" and go through the persuasion as normal, then at the end you're given three options again.
  1. What have you got for sale?
  2. Tell me about Maven Black-Briar
  3. What makes Black-Briar mead so special?
with your pointer defaulted on the second option from memory. Going down one to #3 does the options for #2 whereas immediately hitting E (I'm PC) goes through the motions for #1 even though the pointer's on #2. 173.219.77.134 00:05, 11 August 2012 (UTC)
Holding the mouse over and clicking completely bypasses this, lulz 173.219.77.134 00:07, 11 August 2012 (UTC)

Intimidate formula[edit]

Does someone have it? If so, could he/she(/it?) add it to the page please? I can already come up with a plethora of things to use it for... --SuggestedBowl (talk) 19:05, 6 December 2012 (GMT)

I don't have a formula, but I have code -- raw assembly translated by hand to C++ -- for the game's 2011 release.
SInt16 TESActorBaseData::Subroutine0044D4D0() {
   if (!(this->flags & kFlag_PCLevelMult))
      return this->level;
   SInt32 result = this->level;
   float  a      = this->level / 1000.0;
   if ((*g_thePlayer)->baseForm) {
      SInt32 playerLevel = (*g_thePlayer)->baseForm->actorData.level;
      result = (playerLevel * a);
   }
   if (this->minLevel > 0 && result < this->minLevel)
      return this->minLevel;
   if (this->maxLevel > 0 && result > this->maxLevel)
      return this->maxLevel;
   return result;
};

bool Actor::WillIntimidateSucceed() {
   double speechPlayer = (*g_thePlayer)->actorValueOwner->GetCurrent(0x11); // SpeechCraft
   float  speechTarget = this->actorValueOwner.GetCurrent(0x11);
   float  a = (speechPlayer - speechTarget) / 100.0;
   float  c = pow(1.0 + max(-1.0, a), GMST:fIntimidateSpeechcraftCurve);
   SInt16 levelDataPlayer = (*g_thePlayer)->baseForm->actorData.TESV_0044D4D0();
   SInt32 levelDataTarget = this->baseForm->actorData.TESV_0044D4D0();
   //
   float esp0C = levelDataPlayer * c;
   CalculatePerkData(kEntryPoint_Mod_Player_Intimidation, *g_thePlayer, this, &esp0C);
   //
   // CalculatePerkData took a perk type, two actors, and a pointer to esp0C. This 
   // means that it can read and modify esp0C however it wishes. That function 
   // handles EVERY perk, so I'm not gonna even try to figure out what it's doing 
   // here, lol
   //
   // Based on later usage, esp0C == how scary the player is.
   //
   float  esp04 = levelDataTarget; // how scary is the NPC?
   float  confidenceMult;
   SInt32 confidence = this->baseForm->aiForm.GetConfidence();
   switch (confidence) {
      case 0:
         esp04 *=  GMST:fIntimidateConfidenceMultCowardly;
         break;
      case 1:
         esp04 *=  GMST:fIntimidateConfidenceMultCautious;
         break;
      case 2:
         esp04 *=  GMST:fIntimidateConfidenceMultAverage;
         break;
      case 3:
         esp04 *=  GMST:fIntimidateConfidenceMultBrave;
         break;
      case 4:
         esp04 *=  GMST:fIntimidateConfidenceMultFoolhardy;
         break;
   }
   return (esp04 <= esp0C); // NPC less scary than player?
}
That first method seems to pretty much just be a level getter; the second does the full calculation (Papyrus Actor.WillIntimidateSucceed is a paper-thin wrapper around it). With that in mind, intimidation depends on the actors' relative speech skill, relative level, the game settings, and whether you have any perks helping you out. DavidJCobb (talk) 15:49, 7 August 2018 (UTC)

High skill eliminates need for Persuasion/Intimidation perks?[edit]

So, if I'm reading this correctly, the Persuasion perk gives you a bonus to skill, but 100 skill is enough to succeed every persuasion check, even without perks. Is that correct? And is the same true for the Intimidation perk? Is it worthless if you have a high enough skill? Thanks. --Irrevenant (talk) 00:50, 25 December 2012 (GMT)

I can't verify the info on the page technically, but my sense is: Yes, it seems that the persuasion perks (including intimidation), become useless at some point from middle-high to high speech skill levels, and in a substantial "zone" before they become useless, they are "practically useless", giving you a very small edge. This is based on my experience and the fact that a similar issue occurs with some other skill/perk relationships: Block reduces attack damage up to a cap, for example, and once you begin to reach middle-high levels in the skill, it's likely that having several of the "basic" perks will take you to the cap, which is (essentially) useless, since at that point in the game, you can expect to always or usually have some kind of fortify block effect available (enchantment, potion, standing stone effect), all useless if you are at the cap anyway. So, I'd say that the perks are generally useful only for a short time after they become available, and if you can use Fortify Speech or other enhancements at critical moments, then certainly other perks will yield greater overall value. I'm not sure how player level is related to intimidation "power". That may change things depending on the speech skill to player level ratio, but to say it simply, these perks can certainly give you no edge, and even when they do, they will generally do so for a relatively short time. There are definitely other perks that will be more generally valuable to most players. --JR (talk) 03:33, 25 December 2012 (GMT)
If I may add my two cents, I noticed two specific Intimidation check that cannot be successfully completed even with 100 Speech, either with a Taunting Adventurer or a Skooma Dealer. Well, in my experience anyway; I must admit I haven't played in a while. Elakyn (talk) 10:31, 25 December 2012 (GMT)
The Persuasion perk is pretty worthless, though. Even at 45 Speech you can pass hard checks by stacking a few Speech bonuses like the Mask of Clavicus Vile(+10), the blessing from a Shrine of Dibella(+10 and lasts 8 real hours aka 8 hours shy of a week in Skyrim) and the Gift of Charity(+10 and lasts 1 real hour aka almost a day in Skyrim). The only very hard check with Faralda at the college can be skipped by either shouting or passing her test(quick save when you first get to Winterhold and before you approach the bridge to talk to her. If she asks you to cast 1 of the 2 spells out of 5 that you could possibly have trouble casting due to not enough Magicka, just quick load and try again and you'll most likely get one of the other 3 spells that anyone can cast with the base 100 Magicka. Either that or be prepared by having Novice/Apprentice Hood, the Necromancer Amulet, the Atronach Stone, be an Altmer, raise Conjuration and Illusion ahead of time by casting Bound Swords in combat or casting Muffle anywhere respectively, or some combination thereof. Also have an extra 30 gold to buy the tome for the spells she asks you to cast if you don't already know it. If nothing else you can chop some firewood for someone who will pay you for it).Jtenorj (talk) 09:23, 29 July 2017 (UTC)
I accidentally wrote that last bit here instead of the Persuasion Perk is only Half Useful section where it should have gone(though after rereading this section it kind of applies but restates something already mentioned along with more specific information). I might chime in about intimidation in general. I never get that perk. I always end up level 151+ with 100 Speech and when I try to intimidate the bandit chick at Valtheim Towers she and her friends alway attack me(not that they aren't easy to destroy at that point but still). I'd think max Speech and a character level higher than any named NPC in the game would guarantee success. Maybe I need Daedric Armor, idk.Jtenorj (talk) 13:38, 29 July 2017 (UTC)

Clarification re: bugs and Angeline's Aromatics[edit]

The bugs section says "[...] Angeline's Aromatics in Solitude will never remember an investment" and "It is occasionally possible to invest in a merchant multiple times, giving them an exorbitant amount of gold with which to buy. This may be specific to certain merchants—it has so far been observed only with Ulfberth War-Bear and Angeline Morrard." These are obviously mutually contradictory. Which is it, please? Thanks. --Irrevenant (talk) 13:41, 1 January 2013 (GMT)

Missing persuasion checks[edit]

"What follows is a list of all persuasion attempts" is missing:

--DayDreamer (talk) 06:34, 2 January 2013 (GMT)

Speech Reset + Master Trader[edit]

On the bugs section, I've confirmed the report that resetting your speech skill will NOT remove the master trader bonus. If you've got Dragonborn installed along with the Unofficial Dragonborn Patch, you can get that reset using the reward you get after battling Miraak. If you're using the Patch 1.9 legendary skills menu, you'll be out of luck since that calls directly into the engine routines to reset the skill which makes it impossible for a user fix to correct it. Arthmoor (talk) 21:06, 9 April 2013 (GMT)


Indeed, I have the legendary patch and lost the perk for good. The only solution I've found was to look in the CK for the perk itself and try to backstep the quests. The thing is that this perk, Master Trader (ID 001090A5), calls in a Perk Quest, (ID 005F596) that must be at Stage 50 for the perk to properly work. Aparently, console command while in the game, GetStage 005F596 (Perk Quest) gave me a quest stage 60 instead of 50. This issue can be fixed simple removing the quest and type in the correct quest stage.

First of all, check the quest stage status by typing GetStage 005F596. If the stage is not 50, then:

ResetQuest 005F596 SetStage 005F596 50

That's it. Waiting 48 hours will rest every merchant in the game and will have the 1000 septims of the Master trader back. ((Elsur))

Taste of Death, Brother Verulus persuasion check is categorized Easy?[edit]

Recently i just failed the aforementioned persuasion check, no big deal, really, but after i read it here that it only need 25 speech while i have 73 speech, does the wiki page is wrong? Or its just my game being glitchy? I play on PC, using USKP 1.3.1a, skyrim version 1.9, for the info. Thanks in advance. Cindy 202.152.205.137 19:23, 30 May 2013 (GMT)

Someone should check this in-game. Based on CSList info, it looks like your speech skill cannot be at or above 17 in order to pass the check, which would be bizarre. Vely►t►e 19:46, 30 May 2013 (GMT)
Same happened with The Black Star - Persuade Azura sent - Speech skill = 31 / Level 35 have Masque (+speech) Patch 1.9 Philbert (talk) 17:29, 8 June 2013 (GMT)

buffs effects on leveling[edit]

In the tips section on leveling it states that any buffs will slow down leveling. I did some in-game testing and found this to be false. With ciceros clothing, speech amulet, potion, and gift of charity I found my leveling to be absolutely the same as with no buffs whatsoever. I made a save and sold all the potions I made leveling alchemy(without buying anything) both with and without the buffs. It took me from speech level of 20 1/2 to a level of 78 7/8 both times. That is from just looking at it visually, I did not console exact values. Also with the gift of charity it was actually 88 7/8 because the buff hadn't worn off. Not really important I just wanted to make sure any responders were aware I took that into account. — Unsigned comment by 209.189.227.194 (talk) at 01:26 on 20 June 2013‎

I'll remove that section. I was skeptical when I saw it, and if you did the testing to debunk it, that's good enough for me. -Vardis (talk) 18:12, 2 October 2013 (GMT)
You don't seem to know the difference between Fortify Speech & Fortify Barter. That section is talking about Fortify Speech effects. Fortify Barter effects do not have any effect on Speech leveling.
Fortify Speech effects increase the amount of Speech experience needed to level. To prove this, Fortify your Speech skill to 100. You will find it is now impossible to level your Speech, selling items doesn't move the XP bar at all.
Cicero's Clothing doesn't have a Fortify Speech effect, but a Fortify Barter. I'm not sure which amulet you are referring to; it is possible to have both Fortify Speech & Fortify Barter effects on amulets. Custom potions can only have Fortify Barter effects, Fortify Speech potions do exist but are rather rare. The Gift of Charity is a Fortify Speech effect, it's the only one you mention that is definitely a Fortify Speech effect. Are you sure that it was in effect while you were selling the items? You need to visit the beggar right before beginning the sale. --Morrolan (talk) 19:03, 2 October 2013 (GMT)
Have you tried this but only fortifying speech to 90? I suspect its not increasing because your at 100% even though its only a boost, but thats only a guess. Philbert (talk) 19:24, 28 November 2014 (GMT)
I ran some tests using console commands and short answer: both Fortify Barter and Fortify Persuasion (Speechcraft) do NOT have any effect on Speech skill increases or XP gained. I tested this by selling the same 10 high value items under 3 different conditions: 1. with NO buffs to Persuasion or Barter, 2. with 65% buffed Persuasion only, 3. with 65% buffed Barter only. In all 3 cases, after selling, the Speech skill was raised from 20 to 43, and the XP bar ended up in the exact same place every time (right under the first "E" of "Speech").

I know how to get 100 Speech easy, new glitch/ exploit[edit]

All you have to do, is the restoration loop glitch. with this, create a fortify enchanting potion with obscene values, then enchant an iron dagger. this should causse the cost to skyrocket. then simply sell the dagger regardless of cost, then your speech skill shoudl boost to 100.

to put it in persepective. i sold a bow for 2005185 gold ( yep that much) and my speech went from 64-100

it's the new exploit, get it before they patch it — Unsigned comment by 87.114.246.173 (talk) at 16:53 on 23 June 2013

It's not new, it's not hidden, and it won't be patched. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 17:05, 23 June 2013 (GMT)
i was unsure how public it was i couldnt find this exploit on the internet — Unsigned comment by 87.114.246.173 (talk) at 17:11 on 23 June 2013
While the specific point of using it to level skills quickly may not be that well documented, the overall nature of the restoration glitch is everywhere. It is documented on this page, the last of the notes under the "Gaining Skill XP" header. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 17:19, 23 June 2013 (GMT)
You only need to create potions with a value of about 1.5M to 2M to go from 15 to 100 2.96.60.122 12:16, 30 August 2013 (GMT)

Persuade Away a Bounty?[edit]

How often does this option happen? I've tried getting tiny bounties as it suggests and the nearest guard immediately runs up and whips out a weapon and gives me options that don't involve persuasion (except the Thieves' Guild one). Apparently stealing a mug worth 1 gold is enough to bash my head in with a hammer, not enough to "ignore anyway" regardless of my level 64 speech... CookiesRiot (talk) 17:18, 7 August 2013 (GMT)

You need the Persuasion perk in order to persuade away bounties if your Speech skill is 53; otherwise, you have to wait until your speech skill is 75. Vely►t►e 18:14, 7 August 2013 (GMT)
First you need to evade the guards and escape the area. When you later return to the area, you will get the dialog option if you meet the other requirements (perk or TG member). Minotaur (talk) 04:27, 23 November 2014 (GMT)

Persuasion perk is only half useful[edit]

Someone needs to modify this article so that it actually tells the truth about the Persuasion perk.

It's supposed to lower the speech skill of all persuasion attempts except very easy ones; however, the perk only becomes available if you're speech is at level 50; by that point, you already can pass easy and average persuasions anyway. Even if you reset your speech skill with the legendary skills feature, you will lose that perk and can't get it again until your speech skill is back up to 50. Therefore, the reduction in requisite speech skill for easy and average persuasions is completely worthless.

And someone needs to modify this article so as to acknowledge this.70.178.160.32 09:42, 29 August 2013 (GMT)

You are expressing an opinion ("worthless") about the perk, which does not belong in articles. You do have a point about its effectiveness, though. An unopinionated way of stating it would be something like "This perk has no effect on easy and average persuasion attempts", as long as this is true. If there is something that is actually untrue in the article, please feel free to fix it, or point out exactly what it is and someone else will. --Xyzzy Talk 14:52, 29 August 2013 (GMT)
The Persuasion perk is pretty worthless, though. Even at 45 Speech you can pass hard checks by stacking a few Speech bonuses like the Mask of Clavicus Vile(+10), the blessing from a Shrine of Dibella(+10 and lasts 8 real hours aka 8 hours shy of a week in Skyrim) and the Gift of Charity(+10 and lasts 1 real hour aka almost a day in Skyrim). The only very hard check with Faralda at the college can be skipped by either shouting or passing her test(quick save when you first get to Winterhold and before you approach the bridge to talk to her. If she asks you to cast 1 of the 2 spells out of 5 that you could possibly have trouble casting due to not enough Magicka, just quick load and try again and you'll most likely get one of the other 3 spells that anyone can cast with the base 100 Magicka. Either that or be prepared by having Novice/Apprentice Hood, the Necromancer Amulet, the Atronach Stone, be an Altmer, raise Conjuration and Illusion ahead of time by casting Bound Swords in combat or casting Muffle anywhere respectively, or some combination thereof. Also have an extra 30 gold to buy the tome for the spell she asks you to cast if you don't already know it. If nothing else you can chop some firewood for someone who will pay you for it to have the necessary gold).Jtenorj (talk) 13:46, 29 July 2017 (UTC)
The perk may have limited uses, but it is still not a totally wasted perk. It gives you a permanent bonus rather than having to lug around the right enchanted equipment and make sure you have the right blessings in effect. It is also required for the Intimidation perk, and while that doesn't affect whether this one is "pointless", the overall benefit of the two is more than avoiding them. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 16:05, 29 July 2017 (UTC)

thieves guild+ bounty = quick leveling[edit]

so it's a way i usually use to lvl speech and pickpocket(if it's in mid lvl) quickly: I join the guild, i commit a crime in any city and I bribe the guard with about 100-350 gold (i think it's dependent upon my lvl and\or how much gold i have) to ignore it and the bounty remains, I pickpocket back the gold and speak to all the other guards in the city bribe them and pickpocket the gold back... i find it more useful and easy than persuading since it helps me lvl pickpocket as well.... — Unsigned comment by 85.64.16.111 (talk) at 08:00 on 22 September 2013‎

Update investor section?[edit]

The 500 gold can be pickpocketed (or "bought ut") straight away before a shop reset, and it'll still show the permanent 500 increase after the shop reset. If not pickpocketed or "bought out", it'll show a temporary extra 500 gold on top of the permanent 500 gold increase.

Could, or should, this be added more concise to the section pls? Thx. 217.121.86.187 18:15, 23 September 2013 (GMT)

It's buggy. I found that some merchants, if you pickpocketed the gold back before opening their store, you would disable the investing, and it would let you invest again. So you could invest over and over again, repeatedly stealing 500 gold back to level Pickpocket the grinding way. --Morrolan (talk) 00:32, 3 October 2013 (GMT)

Fence perk.[edit]

I noticed, that contrary to description, it allows selling of stolen goods to any merchants, including quartermasters, who cannot be invested in. I don't have Master Trader perk yet. 76.70.38.192 22:30, 17 October 2013 (GMT)

You aren't the first person to notice this. Are you playing with any mods? --AN|L (talk) 01:39, 18 October 2013 (GMT)

Speech Training exploit[edit]

I am travelling with my spouse. I traded with her and gave her about 20k gold. Then I told her, "show me what you have for sale." She had the 20k I gave her, so I sold her 20k gold worth of weapons/potions/scrolls/etc. Then I traded with her, took back the items, gave her ~20k gold...

Lather, rinse repeat. It is a little tedious, but so far I have gone from 62 to 73 using this method. Is it worth adding to the page? 144.183.31.2 11:13, 22 November 2013 (GMT)

Are you sure this worked for you? I just tried it, and I was not able to take things from her that I had sold to her. My understanding of trading with merchants, including your spouse, is that the game keeps items in their merchant chest separate from their personal inventory, which would make this exploit unworkable. --Xyzzy Talk 05:12, 23 November 2013 (GMT)
Sorry, let me add a caveat...my spouse was my follower and I did this while away from home. If you are in your home, it will not work. 107.194.218.9 14:49, 27 December 2013 (GMT)
Hmmm. I tried this with Aela (my spouse) outside Heljarchen Hall and at the Weynon Stones, both times with the same result. I was able to give her the gold, then open the "What have you got for sale" dialogue, and her available gold matched the amount I had given her (she had 0 gold to start, and I gave her about 17k). However, when I sold an item to her, no gold was transferred, and the item completely disappeared from the game. I did receive Speech XP, but I wasn't able to take the item back from her or buy it back, it was simply gone. What platform are you playing on? Does your game have the latest official patch, and if you are on PC, are you using any mods? --Xyzzy Talk 07:16, 28 December 2013 (GMT)
I have ish's soul to perk mod and the marriageable Serena mod. That's it. I am playing on a PC. I play through steam. So I assume I have the latest patch, but will check to be sure. Sorry for all the different IPs, been in a lot of airports lately. 208.79.15.59 06:31, 9 January 2014 (GMT)

The sell/buy loop of an expensive item does not work[edit]

I just tried in game to level my speech with the sell/buy loop (selling an expensive item, buying it back, re-selling it, etc) and it turned out that it didn't work:

I sold and bought my Archmage's Robes about 15 times, and did not gain a single level. When I reloaded my save just before this and sold 5-6 potions (worth 1/2 the price of the Archmage's Robe) I gained a level. I have the latest Official and Unofficial updates installed, so I think this has been fixed at some point.

I will try to do further testing, but has anyone noticed this as well? — Unsigned comment by 103.1.240.1 (talk) at 22:38 on 10 December 2013

I never really thought of that as a good way to level speech, since you'd be taking losses on each transaction anyway. If you can verify with the CK that selling the same item repeatedly doesn't provide experience, it's okay to go ahead and remove it. ThuumofReason (talk) 01:22, 11 December 2013 (GMT)

The Black Star - Persuading Nelacar as Easy?[edit]

I have an unbuffed 85 Speech and just tried to persuade Nelacar during the Black Star quest (the line about being sent by a priestess of Azura) and failed. Intimidate worked, however. I am running a bunch of mods but not any that should affect this. If someone could double-check the requisite vanilla level that'd be great. Likelolwhat (talk) 02:46, 20 December 2013 (GMT)

Same. I had a high speech skill as well(87?) and I think I had the persuade perk too. I couldn't persuade him but I could intimidate. I'm running no mods, all DLC, and update 1.9. --Zuuk (talk) 07:27, 9 January 2014 (GMT)
Same with Enis (A Night to Remember) Rorikstead. Persuade failed, Intimidate succeeded, high Speech with buffs, Vanilla PS3 game. Philbert (talk) 17:15, 3 January 2015 (GMT)
There is indeed a bug with the persuade check. Instead of checking your Speech skill, it checks Nelacar's, as noted in the relevant bugs section. Since his Speech skill is 15, this will always fail. In theory, you might be able to reverse-pickpocket a Fortify Speech item onto him. That would need in-game checking to see if it would work, though.
Off-hand, I see nothing wrong with Ennis' Speech check. It's listed as a Hard check, though, so you would've needed 75 without the Persuasion skill or 53 with it, but it sounds like you probably had that. Robin Hood  (talk) 03:35, 5 January 2015 (GMT)
I'll check on my next play-through. I know I had the Masque of Clavicus Vile, the Amulet of Dibella, and the Shrine of Dibella active but I don't know what my base Speech was. Thanks for checking though! Philbert (talk) 03:50, 10 January 2015 (GMT)

What is that Shape?[edit]

Can someone please relieve me of this riddle I've been trying to figure out for months; what is the shape of the speech tree and what does it mean?--Mixer989 (talk) 16:48, 5 May 2014 (GMT)

Two faces looking at each other mouths slightly open. You can see it clearly before you zoom in. Means "dialog" or "speech" I would assume. If you mean how did Bethesda get that shape from the stars used, well, look at any astrological chart and tell me how our ancestors got the patterns of what they named them, except maybe the Big Dipper LOL Philbert (talk) 03:59, 10 January 2015 (GMT)

Clarification requested on selling items[edit]

I have searched, to no avail, to try to quantify this...

1/. I have read that selling higher priced items yields more exp

2/. I have also read that selling items individually also yields more exp

So, which takes precedence?

If I had a 2 pound item worth 20 gold and 2 x 1 pound items worth 10 each, does selling the 2 pound items yield more exp or the two 1 pound ones?

I am trying to maximise my looting...

Thanks in advance. 101.168.255.246 04:43, 13 May 2014 (GMT)

Based on gameplay experience individual sales comes first, then value. A single very high value item using the restoration glitch can take your speech from 15 to 100 in one sale. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 18:05, 13 May 2014 (GMT)
To clarify: This is just like in Oblivion. If you buy or sell a "stack" of items all at once where the individual value of the item is 100 gold you gain only the experience for a "single" 100 gold item, not the stack value. So, for instance, buying or selling a 1000 stack of 1 gold value Iron Arrows nets you the skill gain of 1 gold while buying or selling each Iron Arrow one at a time takes forever but nets you a skill gain of 1000 gold. Note also, you actually gain more Speech Skill experience on the buy side at low Speech Skill levels because your paying more and on the sell side at higher levels because your selling for more. Philbert (talk) 20:38, 28 November 2014 (GMT)

Cannot bribe guard to finish final achievement[edit]

If someone could please help me I'd be very appreciative. I'm level 101 and have completed all but one Xbox 360 (74/75) achievement - the one left is because I've never been able to bribe a guard. I only had the option once, in Whiterun 100s of hours played ago, and am kicking my ass for not bribing a guard then and ending this nightmare ahead of time. I thought it happened after the end of the 'main' TG storyline when leaving Irkngthand, and told myself once I finished off everything else in the game, that I'd go back to a pre-Irk save and hopefully bribe a guard and be finished everything 'major'... but it will not happen. My speech is at 100, I have all the perks for it including bribery, and have the persuasion option along with paying fine and jail time - but no bribery option with any guards. It is driving me nuts!

In all honesty, after Irkngthand my game turned into a glitch fest with errors and freezing almost constantly. I took my sweet time exploring Skyrim... 841hrs, and that doesn't include replaying back a few times to correct errors (except for that damn 'strange amulet' stuck in my inventory - and yes I know what it really is/should be).

After playing this long, I just want to retire the game. I've loved Skyrim, but after that many hours and all the freezing and bugs of late - I understandably need a change. I've got loads of help on UESP, but I've yet to find a solution even here for this problem, and I know others have been stuck here with bribery issues, as well. A lot of times I'd see people posting for help generally online about this, and others would just act ignorant and like they were stupid (like they didnt know they needed the bribery perk, etc) - and trust me, I know what I'm talking about. The bribery option is just not there for me. Not at my latest level 101 save, not at this 79 one pre-Irk... may try another save and just give up on it for a few days... haha!

Any help besides replaying the entire game, would be greatly appreciated! Thanks in advance! — Unsigned comment by Rougediablo (talkcontribs) at 11:11 on 17 August 2014

If its purely to get the achievement I would suggest creating a game purely for it (you'll need to do all three at least once on this playthrough). Bribery is not limited to guards, you can bribe people for information in quests too. You can do it as early as Mikael for Carlotta in Whiterun, or there are three bribery options at the start of The Forsworn Conspiracy (you can get all three options done here). Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 11:27, 17 August 2014 (GMT)

Training Speech[edit]

I don't know if this has been noted elsewhere but I just ran into a buff problem. I had the Shrine of Dibella active and the Amulet of Dibella and the Masque of Clavicus Vile on then went to train Speech (25) using Ogmund and the cost was 550 rather than the 300 it should have been for that level. Removing the Shrine, amulet and Masque buffs brought it back into line. Philbert (talk) 09:45, 3 January 2015 (GMT)

If you use buffs, the cost of training will increase to reflect the buffed skill level. So when you fortified your speech, the game factored in the effects of the Masque and the shrine. Zul se onikaanLaan tinvaak 14:03, 3 January 2015 (GMT)
Thanks! - I've been playing this game since its release and never noticed that. Lots of extra gold spent, thank God its a game LOL Philbert (talk) 17:22, 3 January 2015 (GMT)

Persuading Astrid's Captives[edit]

To the Other / Easy Persuades, can be added Astrid's three captives in the Abandoned Shack when beginning the Dark Brotherhood.

On this theme, the easy way to get the points is kill Grelod first, talk to Aretino boy second, find Silda the Unseen and give her a coin for Gift of Charity, then walk/run (no fast travel) to Kynesgrove for your nap on the free outdoor mats. The courier with the letter should appear when you discover Kynesgrove.

In the shack, you ask each of the three if anyone would pay to kill them, the Persuade option is on the next response set of each dialog.

68.203.207.45 04:36, 3 June 2015 (UTC)

What is the barter cap? The formula stuff needs a plain-english layman's summary; also, a question:[edit]

Seriously, it makes me dizzy trying to read the "Price" section, and it doesn't seem to make any real conclusions or offer any real information beyond the bare-bones formula.

After spending a while puzzling out the formulas and commentary's meanings there, am I understanding it correctly that with 100 skill and all relevant perks, you still need roughly 50-58% Fortify Barter enchantment (from potions, blessings, or whatever)to hit the "trade price cap" of 1.0 or 1.05?

And if, which is likely, I'm mistaken, what does it take to reach that cap? — Unsigned comment by 108.0.32.170 (talk) at 10:12 on 6 June 2015 (GMT)

Part of the problem is that your barter partner may be influencing the cap value, as well as other factors nobody has a good understanding of. A simple part of this that is understood is one of the perks gives you a 10% barter advantage with vendors of the opposite sex. Something I haven't been able to confirm is that relationship/intimacy rank could be a factor too, or something else entirely. Try selling to the College fence, Enthir and his prices seem to be much worse even when I'm wearing the same trade boost gear. — Unsigned comment by 67.78.143.131 (talk) at 19:54 on 28 July 2015

Merchant's max gold[edit]

The "Gaining Skill XP" section mentions that "the player should avoid allowing the trainer-merchant to accumulate more than 28,000 gold due to a bug with merchant banks." The "Bugs" section says "If you raise a merchant's gold to 65535 (16 bit value max) it will freeze". I believe the actual cap based on my testing on the PC version is 32767. Once the merchant's gold hits 32768 (2^15) the "freeze" glitch shows up where you can continue to sell items but you get nothing for it and the merchant's gold is not reduced. My experience is more consistent with what is published in the Bugs section of the Merchant's page here: [1]

Can anyone else confirm this? If so, we should update both sections of this page. Luke1138 (talk) 06:32, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

I've seen bugs occur at lower amounts of gold than 32768, though that's not an unreasonable number to suspect. There may be more involved in the calculation than just what's visible in the final total (i.e., it may go over 32k, then have items subtracted from the amount, still triggering the bug). That wouldn't be a common behaviour for a numeric overflow, but without knowing how the calculation is done behind the scenes, it's difficult to know what to expect. In any event, I can definitely confirm that 64k isn't necessary to trigger it. Robin Hood  (talk) 19:19, 16 September 2015 (UTC)
Ok. I'd like to make the update to 32767 so that it is consistent with the Merchant page unless anyone objects. Luke1138 (talk) 06:15, 25 September 2015 (UTC)
Works for me, at least until/unless we figure out something more specific. Robin Hood  (talk) 20:21, 25 September 2015 (UTC)

Final price factor 1.39860, not 1.42857[edit]

The section about prices state that the "At 100 skill and all perks the final price factor is 1.42857." I believe this to be incorrect, if the formulas above it are correct. You get to 1.42857 by calculating 2 / 1.4, i.e. fBarterMin / (100 % + 30 % (Haggling perks) + 10 % (Allure perk)), but the formula of the base price factor states that it should be fBarterMin / (100 % + 30 %) / (100 % 10 %). I.e. 2 / 1.3 / 1.1. That gives a result of 1.39860. Basically an error of not counting the "compound interest". So, either the formula is wrong (Allure is added to other perks, not multiplied with after other perks), or the result is wrong. Are the formulas directly from the game scripts, i.e. definitely correct? 85.76.161.158 14:33, 3 June 2017 (UTC)

Buffs Increase Speech Challenge XP Earned[edit]

Starting with a fresh character having level 15 Speech (Imperial) that went directly to Markarth, was working out a way to get level 25 Speech using the Forsworn Conspiracy and other Markarth speech challenges. 25 base speech is enough to complete the follow-on Cidna Mine quest without pickpocket risk or brawling.

Naturally, the character must have both Thief Stone and Well Rested bonuses. What stunned me, was that he also must have both the Gift of Charity AND the Blessing of Dibella! With only one or the other, the six challenges (Margaret, Mulush for Weylin, Garvey, Rhiada at Treasury House (must be bribed), Mulush again for Omulag, and Brother Verulus in Underground Keep) attain only level 24. But with both buffs, the character can reach speech level 26 (and character Level 3) -- Omulag or Verulus can be skipped, providing a Level 2 character ready to pop, with exactly the 25 Speech needed.

This is a surprising result. The speech buffs increased the XP provided by the challenges.

Benefit of the Allure perk seems to remain after making Speech Legendary[edit]

So I was testing the difference in prices between using the Blackguard Hood and the Masque of Clavicus Vile at both 100 Speech with Haggling 5/5 and all the perks on the left side of the tree and with zero skill and no perks to answer a question about which is better that was posted on stackexchange arqade. I was testing in Dawnstar with the smiths Thoring and his wife Seren. I was playing a female character and as expected I was getting better prices with Thoring with the Allure perk in place. I was surprised that after making the skill Legendary I still seemed to be getting better prices with Thoring than with Seren as if the Allure perk were still in effect. Perhaps I shouldn't be surprised as apparently when you make this particular skill legendary at least some of the perk effects remain despite not having the perks anymore like the ability to invest in merchants or all of them having an extra 1000 gold if you already had those perks before. Since that is mentioned in the bug section of the Speech page, I was thinking of adding the Allure perk to the list of perks effects retained after making Speech legendary unless perhaps someone beats me to it or wants to test it first for a sort of two factor verification. I was playing the Legendary version of the game with patch 1.9 on PC and no mods installed. If this doesn't get a response in the near future, I'll just go ahead and update the page to reflect the results of my testing.Jtenorj (talk) 09:38, 29 July 2017 (UTC)

This is an edit I made to my answer on stack exchange arqade: "Edit:About that last bit. I was looking up some info regarding available choices of powers from one of the black books on Solstheim in response to a question on youtube and came to realize my character has Lover's Insight active(Do 10% more damage and get 10% better prices with the opposite sex). That explains why my prices were so much better with Thoring compared to with Seren when I still had all my perks and why my prices were still a little better with Thoring after making Speech Legendary and losing Allure. Based on that, the effect from the Allure Perk does not carry over after making Speech legendary. I can either delete that part of the answer(since it isn't really relevant anyway) or leave the full answer intact along with this paragraph." Basically what I'm trying to say it that I should have never started this section of the Talk page in the first place. My bad.Jtenorj (talk) 13:23, 29 July 2017 (UTC)

The Correct(?) Buying and Selling Formula[edit]

sell price modifier = (1 + Haggling %) * AllureS * (1 + Fortify Barter from potion) * (1 + the sum of Fortify Barter from equipment + Fortify Barter from Blessing of Zenithar)
buy price modifier = (1 - Haggling %) * AllureB * (1 - Fortify Barter from potion) * (1 - the sum of Fortify Barter from equipment - Fortify Barter from Blessing of Zenithar)

where AllureS = 1.1, AllureB = 0.91. These values are taken from CK. Lywzc (talk) 14:04, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

There is something flawed with your formulae. It appears, especially given the claim that the final price factor is two numbers when it can only ever be one, that you are using the formula to find the numbers, rather than allowing the known numbers to dictate the formula. The final price factor cannot be two numbers for two formulae when it is derived from a single source. The selling price is also not capped at .95, it is 1.00 (at least pre-Special Edition). SSE may have changed the cap, but it would not have changed the pricing formula. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 16:28, 13 August 2017 (UTC)
Yes, yesterday I forget to check the selling price in game before I made my edit, the max selling price is truly 1.00. However, there is no reason to undo the whole edit just because of it. The other things are correct. Yes, it is single source, but it is considered in two parts. One is the value applied when buying, the other is the value when selling. In fact, the Haggling perks are also separated in buying and selling. 1.10 and 0.90, 1.15 and 0.85, up to 1.30 and 0.70. Lywzc (talk) 03:22, 14 August 2017 (UTC)
Ugh, after double check the CK, I found that to make things worse, the Haggling perks are modified by the USLEEP. In the original game, even the Haggling perk values are complicated and not as simple as the formula above. In fact, in the original game, Haggling1 is 0.91 for buying and 1.10 for selling, Haggling2 is 0.87 for buying and 1.15 for selling, Haggling3 is 0.83 for buying and 1.20 for selling, Haggling4 is 0.80 for buying and 1.25 for selling, Haggling5 is 0.77 for buying and 1.30 for selling. The buying multiplier is the reciprocal of the selling multiplier, but truncated. Also, it seems strange that fBarterSellMax = 0.95 while you can sell an item for its full value. Lywzc (talk) 03:44, 14 August 2017 (UTC)