Lore talk:Names

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Archive 1: Sep 2007 - Dec 2011

Book Names Clarification

There was a discussion on this, but the conclusion seemed a little ambiguous: are we including names only found in books (presuming we can identify the person with a specific race)? Does it matter if the book is supposed to be fiction or nonfiction? I was wondering whether "Karsten Hammer-Back", a hunter mentioned in Lycanthropic Legends of Skyrim, should be included.

Also, why are there so few entries for names from the earlier games? Is it just that no one has gotten around to it yet? Minor Edits^{Threats•Evidence} 22:06, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

If by earlier games you mean Daggerfall and Arena, that's because names were determined at random in those. There is still a lot of work to be done on the names article. Lore names are just one of those (basically every book needs to be read and names from it, if racially distinguishable, need to be added). Manuals are next, and then come forum posts and those alike. -- kertaw48 23:41, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

A Tsaesci Name?

The name of a book author Kier-Jo Chorvak sounds a lot like some Tsaesci names. It has been noted that the Akaviri invaders of First Era had a major impact on the development of Cyrodilic culture, so if not a Tsaesci himself, could it be he has a Tsaesci name? -- kertaw48 12:43, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

Draconic Names?

What is the source for the names of the 500 companions? And why would they be included as "Draconic Names" . . . there is no evidence that the companions . . . were dragons . . . as well "Tosh Raka" cannot really be considered a dragon name can it? seeing as he isnt a dragon by default . . . Ralok 18:36, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

According to this page's history, it was taken from The Five Hundred Mighty Companions or Thereabouts of Ysgramor the Returned, whose names, while looking very much alike those of Dragons, have no source denoting them as being Dragon names (I always thought the 500 Companions were Nords or Atmorans). Besides, it's a unsubstantiated text from an ex-employee of Bethesda that references members of the official forum. It should most likely be removed.

As for Tosh Raka, his name was added here before Skyrim, when we only knew a handful of Dragon names. -- kertaw48 07:59, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

Seconded. The whole section should be chopped. Everything about it is extremely dubious. A lot of it has been contradicted by Skyrim lore (like the name of Ysgramor's sons), and the total lack of corroboration speaks volumes. It was a treat for some forum members, not something that can be treated as credible at this juncture. Minor Edits^{Threats•Evidence} 23:08, 23 October 2012 (GMT)

The section should be chopped because it was written by someone who doesnt work for bethesda, and the information was in no way published or distributed in any official capacity by bethesda. Michael Kirkbride may have worked for bethesda once, but as long as he isnt on their pay-roll everything he writes is just fan-fiction. It would be different if he conceptualized the elder scrolls series . . . but he didnt. As for Tosh Raka, he isnt really a dragon he is one of those akaviri tiger people. He became a dragon to be sure . . . but that doesnt mean his name is draconic. Ralok (talk) 07:31, 22 November 2012 (GMT)

We could still add a link to Kirkbride's work. From what I understand, the name pages were created to be used by people as basis for names of characters they might use. While he may not work for Bethesda, he was involved in creating the dragons and their culture, so he obviously knows what dragon names should look like. The link should also be accompanied by a note, allowing people to judge for themselves if they want to consider those names at all. -- Kertaw48 (talk) 11:59, 22 November 2012 (GMT)

I am sorry, but no . . . simply no, he is not an employee of bethesda, and his work is not validated. Not only that but the names arent even dragon names, the 500 companions were not dragons and Kirkbrides fanon only give them vaguely draconic names. Tosh Raka isnt a dragon, but at least he transformed into one . . . these guys werent even dragons AT ALL. Ralok (talk) 15:25, 22 November 2012 (GMT)

On the subject of Tosh Raka: you're taking it far too literally. The name is clearly a play on "Akatosh"; while there may not be a direct canon source stating it, Tosh Raka is intended to be the Akaviri opposite of the Tamrielic God of Time. Not exactly a prime example of a dragon name, but he shouldn't be believed to be a literal member of the Tiger Folk. It might just be best to remove him. —Legoless (talk) 23:11, 22 November 2012 (GMT)

I dont mean to be rude Legolass but, you are taking it far to literally. You are saying that because the guys name is Tosh Raka he must be the akaviri opposite of Akatosh. Which doesnt even make sense because I am pretty sure AKAtosh is a god of the AKAviri. And Tosh Raka is never even stated to be a god of any kind, and even his transformation into a dragon has been debated. And we dont know if Tosh Raka was a name taken before or after his ascension to draconic form. There isnt enough info to list it as a draconic name, he might even just be dragonborn for all we know. Ralok (talk) 16:38, 23 November 2012 (GMT)

Edit Break

(←) My source is a post from Kirkbride:

"Don't forget that gods can be shaped by the mythopoeic forces of the mantlers-- so Tosh Raka could be an Akaviri avatar of Akatosh with a grudge against his mirror-brother in Cyrodiil. "Just like Akatosh-as-we-usually-know-him could time-scheme against his mirror-brother of the Nords, Alduin, to keep the present kalpa-- perhaps his favorite-- from being eaten.

"Notice all the coulds."

Hardly canon, but it puts enough doubt on the already-dubious Mysterious Akavir to make it unusable as a reliable source on a page such as this. It simply isn't necessary to list the name, either as draconic or as Akaviri, since it doesn't demonstrate naming conventions. As for speculative musings about Tosh Raka being Dragonborn, they should preferably be restricted to the forums. —Legoless (talk) 17:45, 23 November 2012 (GMT)

In my opinion kirkbrides non-published material should be treated as pre-production material at best, not much different from concept art and the like. But as it stands Tosh Raka should be removed simply because there is virtually no information about the character . . . even the question of whether or not he is permanently in dragon form or can switch back and forth is unanswered. The name should be removed. Ralok (talk) 06:55, 24 November 2012 (GMT)

That being said, even if Tosh Raka is a dragon for the rest of eternity, I sill feel that Akatosh should not be in the Dragon name section. He is not a dragon, by the very nature of what a dragons is. He is one of the Aedra, and there for is a spirit. Also, his name isn't even of Draconic origin. So if anything, that should be removed.--Br3admax (talk) 07:37, 24 November 2012 (GMT)

I concur with Br3admax on this, Akatosh isn't a dragon, he might've been the creator of them but he is an Aedra. Considering him a Dragon is like considering Molag Bal a Vampire cause he created them. Lord Eydvar ^{Talk|Contribs} 07:40, 24 November 2012 (GMT)

Yeah I agree, Akatosh should be removed . . . and with akatosh gone most of the Justification towards Tosh Raka evaporates as well. Ralok (talk) 08:02, 24 November 2012 (GMT)

I'm on the fence about Akatosh. Alduin is considered a demi-god by some, and yet he is clearly a dragon and his name follows the usual conventions. Whereas "Dragonne Papre" is also most certainly a dragon, but his name is completely irregular. I wouldn't argue against removing Akatosh, but as the father of dragons and with such a dragon-sounding name, I don't think it hurts to include him. Since a consensus seems to have been reached on Tosh Raka, I'll go ahead and remove him again. —Legoless (talk) 14:00, 24 November 2012 (GMT)

Snow Elf Names

Should someone start a Snow Elf section and put Gelebor and Vyrthur on it? Charlie1121 00:48, 17 July 2012 (UTC)

In Skyrim there are seven Snow Elves, all male. Athring, Celegriath, Edhelbor, Gelebor, Nirilor, Sidanyis, Vyrthur. I have added them under Falmer, as I assume that would be correct? — Kimi the Elf ^{(talk | contribs)} 01:30, 17 July 2012 (UTC)

Thanks. I'm still new to this wiki and don't really know how to add stuff like sections. Also, I couldn't remember where the names for the other Snow Elves were. Charlie1121 13:23, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

Linking names (Template guru wanted)

See the change I made on Altmer Names. I'd like to propose doing this for all of the Names pages. It provides a bit of authority to the page by making sure that each entry actually has an article on the site. Furthermore, any names listed under "Lore" should link to the book from which that lore originates. This should prevent spurious entries from cropping up, as any non-legit link will show up in red. It'll be a bit harder for some of the races. I picked Altmer because it's easy - most of them only have single names which don't require link-piping. Plus there aren't that many of them compared to other races. For races with 2-part names - it might be nice to have a template that's like {{LinkList}} which will parse out only the first or second word so that it can automatically be used for lists of first or last names. Any template-gurus feel like tackling this? — TheRealLurlock (talk) 13:43, 21 February 2013 (GMT)

If we're going to implement this the way you did, we're going to have a problem with this section in particular. Also, if no one is up for it, I'd be willing to do it manually. -- Kertaw48 (talk) 19:01, 21 February 2013 (GMT)

Bone

I'm not completely sure Arslic Oan's name should be added to the list of Chimer names. Concerning his race, the books are directly contradictory. One passage states that the events take place "when Dunmer were Chimer", but another mentions a "tribe of cannibalistic Nords" who were "occasionally foraging what they liked to call dark meat, the Dunmer". This is especially troublesome given that there are hardly any Chimer names to compare to (not counting the names of ash vampires). -- Kertaw48 (talk) 19:39, 4 March 2013 (GMT)

I'd chalk it up to "unreliable narrator". The story in the book is being told second-hand, so it's hard to say how much is correct and how much is hearsay. I moved Arslic Oan to the Chimer section because I didn't think it belonged on the Dunmer list where someone eles placed it before. It doesn't sound particularly Dunmer anyhow. I think many of the "Lore" entries for names are fictional within the ES world anyhow. Another oddity revealed by that book - the Nords predate the Dunmer? I thought back then they were still called Nedes, but I may be confused a bit. — TheRealLurlock (talk) 20:13, 4 March 2013 (GMT)

Names of unused NPCs

Thaer was recently removed from the Bosmer Names page. The NPC is unused. I don't know what other unused NPCs have their names listed or not, but should we include them or not? I assume they are all lore-friendly (except obvious odd ones, like DomnaMagia). If not, we could always add them to "unused" sections instead of game-specific sections. Vely^►t►e 03:59, 17 April 2013 (GMT)

There are just so many ridiculous OOG names. I disfavor including any so as not to encourage people to add the really objectionable ones in the future. But I'm not really a contributor to this page. Minor Edits^{Threats•Evidence} 04:29, 17 April 2013 (GMT)

It was an anon IP with no edit summary removing the name. I'd chalk it up to the person now seeing them in game, and removing it because of that. I have readded it. There is no reason why we shouldn't use those names. Test NPCs are one thing, but NPCs that clearly were at some point intended to be in the game (or at least named with that intent), I think should be included. Thaer is a very bosmeri name. Jeancey (talk) 06:19, 17 April 2013 (GMT)

I think it was removed because there are two Thaers, and the one that IS in the game is a Nord, not a Bosmer. I fixed the link to point to the unused Bosmer version rather than the Nord. (That first sentence made me want to say something like "Their Thaer is over there, but they're moving their Thaer to there.") — TheRealLurlock (talk) 12:31, 17 April 2013 (GMT)

Names

Do all names that appear in the games go here or does the name need to appear a certain amount of times before being added? Lorenut (talk) 14:18, 18 August 2014 (GMT)

They all do. If there had to be more than one, I think there'd be about five names on the list. :) – Robin Hood  ^(talk) 16:32, 18 August 2014 (GMT)

Banekin names?

I see we have a section here for scamp names. Should a section be added for Banekin names, as well? In ESO, there are two named Banekin in the Hollow City; Zaltag and Zufthalg (they are found along with a scamp by the name of Gibbers, which I went ahead and added to the Scamp Names list). As well, Kupkin is a Banekin found in the Skywatch Mages Guild. I'm not sure if the Abomination of Hate counts (Found in Betnikh, during the quest "Unearthing the Past", as technically this isn't a true name, though it is still a unique Banekin, nevertheless. — Unsigned comment by Morokei (talk • contribs) at 00:03 on 25 July 2015 (UTC)

Go ahead. —Legoless (talk) 20:19, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

Done!~ Morokei (talk) 18:46, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

There's another named Banekin at Shad-Astula in Deshaan. Just did that quest today, but don't remember its name. If anyone can recall that, should add it to the list. — TheRealLurlock (talk) 02:11, 10 August 2015 (UTC)

Does it have a name now? It used to be called Valeyn's Familiar. —Legoless (talk) 02:31, 10 August 2015 (UTC)

I thought it did... Might be remembering wrong, it was a while ago. Too late to check now on this character... I'll try to remember it when my alt gets to that quest. — TheRealLurlock (talk) 21:55, 13 August 2015 (UTC)

Single-Gender Species

For creatures which only ever appear in a single gender, do we really need to specify the gender on this page? E.g. we have sections for "Female Hagraven Names", "Female Lamia Names", "Male Giant Names" etc. I'm pretty sure that some of these species are lore-verified single-gender. Hagravens, Lamia, Nereids, pretty sure they're always female. Not as many male-only species, but I think Giants are at least one. We even have gender specified for the Wamasu section. How can you even tell with those things? Feel like we should just remove the gender specification for cases like this. To be on the safe side, maybe in cases where we only know 1-2 names we can leave it in if it's implied there may exist 2 genders for their species, but then it just becomes a judgement call. Perhaps replace with a note stating something like "All lamias are female" or something? I don't know, just seems like extra information for no reason. — TheRealLurlock (talk) 02:09, 10 August 2015 (UTC)

Chimer and Dunmer

Since the Dunmer are technically cursed Chimer, shouldn't their names be the same? As such, should not the Chimer nameset be a sub-list to the Dunmer or something?--92.114.148.141 21:11, 26 January 2017 (UTC)

Merging Sections and Race Categorization

I have a few points I'd like to hear opinions on before any change is made:

• Giants and frost giants are separate at the moment, but frost giants are just a variant of giants and should probably be merged with the larger group.
• Sea sload names haven't been listed yet, but I think the same argument applies to them. They are just a variant of regular sload and should be listed together with N'Gasta.
• I recently turned the TOC into a 2D TOC, but wasn't sure where to put the races in the "other" category. I almost put wamasu under beastfolk, but they aren't listed as such on Lore:Races. Perhaps this category should be called "Creatures"? Or is there an argument for moving any of these to the other categories?

—Dillonn241 (talk) 15:31, 7 June 2018 (UTC)

Giants and Frost Giants are very different things, which only happen to have the name "giants" applied to them. Giants are at a basic level, large primitive humanoids, and peaceful unless provoked. Frost Giants are aggressive creatures, with five eyes, horns, and no semblance of humanoid societal tendencies. Sea Sload, at this early stage, appear to be just Sload. The categories should be inline with the over pages, only beastfolk listed on the beastfolk page should be under the beastfolk category. Silence is Golden^{Break the Silence} 18:02, 7 June 2018 (UTC)

I agree, Sea Sload can just go under Sload. As far as I know, wamasu are just creatures and none talk, so they'd definitely go on the creature page if that's the case. For creatures that can talk, though, it's worth leaving them in "other", though the tricky part is, are the names listed for these creatures their actual name, or just a nickname given by others. (And I would keep the category as "other"; Umbrielians for instance aren't creatures, at least not most of them.) ~ Alarra ^{(talk • contribs)} 06:22, 8 June 2018 (UTC)

Another comment I’d like to make is that, even in bold, it’s a lot harder to find the playable races at a quick glance now. I think they should either get their own row at the top of that box, or like before, have a row across the top of the page outside of the table of contents, since they are after all not on that current page anyway, so it doesn’t make as much sense to list them in the TOC. ~ Alarra ^{(talk • contribs)} 15:13, 8 June 2018 (UTC)

I reverted that part of the edit. Also added the Sea Sload names, with their gender determined by the lang file. —Dillonn241 (talk) 23:44, 8 June 2018 (UTC)

Celethelel

I'm not convinced that Celethelel is necessarily a male in The Song of Pelinal. The sentence about Celethelel is as follows: "When Huna, whom Pelinal raised from grain-slave to hoplite and loved well, took death from an arrowhead made from the beak of Celethelel the Singer, the Whitestrake went on his first Madness." It does not directly state their gender. My guess is that an editor read the line about how Pelinal was going around killing the "sorcerer-kings" and assumed that Celethelel was a king, and therefore a male. But this is rather speculative.

The section in the book that talks about Celethelel feels tonally distinct from the section where Kirkbride lists some of the sorcerer-kings that Pelinal (brutally) killed. The focus of the sentence is actually on Huna, and it also wouldn't make sense for Huna to be involved in a one-on-one duel between Pelinal and an Ayleid king. It is equally possible that Huna was fighting elsewhere with the main army, died by the hand of Celethelel the Singer—who is perhaps a regular soldier whose name lives on only because of that deed—and therefore that there is no way to connect the term "king" to Celethelel directly.

I'm sure you can read into the text further to make an argument one way or another, but my point is that doing so relies too heavily on our own research. The best course of action would simply be to record Celethelel's name as having an ambiguous gender attached. —Atvelonis (talk) 18:03, 12 September 2018 (UTC)

Agreed and done. —Legoless (talk) 20:46, 12 September 2018 (UTC)

Naga

I think it would be fitting to move the Naga names to the Argonian page as its own section (similar to how Ashlanders have their own section on the Dunmer page); while they deserve to be listed a bit distinctly since they're not normal Argoninas, they are a variety of Argonian with the same types of name structures. Currently they seem to be listed on both the Argonian page mixed in with all the ESO names, as well as in their own section on the main Names page. ~ Alarra ^{(talk • contribs)} 17:33, 3 March 2019 (UTC)

Nym

I'm not sure about Nym being listed as an Ayleid. Doesn't seem to be stated anywhere. Mindtrait0r (talk) 19:09, 11 April 2023 (UTC)

The source is Star Teeth, Volume I, which retroactively implies the Star Teeth to be of Ayleid origin. Doesn't directly confirm Nym's race since he's just a ghost. —⁠Legoless (talk) 19:57, 11 April 2023 (UTC)

Arslic Oan

Personally, I doubt 'Arslic Oan' is a genuine Dunmer OR Chimer name (see earlier topic). The book in which he appears is part of a series revolving around drinking buddies exchanging tall stories, so anything in them must be taken with a grain of salt unless confirmred elsewhere. I'm not saying remove his name necessarily, but maybe a note could be added, as with some other 'non-standard' names.--Draugluin (talk) 04:06, 29 June 2023 (UTC) Oops. Accidentally added two headers there and don't know how to remove the extra. Sorry.--Draugluin (talk) 04:07, 29 June 2023 (UTC)