Lore talk:Demiprince

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Bestiary?[edit]

These individuals seem more akin to gods than creatures. Is this the right term to categorize them under?--IceFireWarden (talk) 21:01, 4 May 2015 (GMT)

Tough to say. The Daedric Princes are listed as gods because they have worshippers, while most Daedra are listed in the bestiary largely due to the fact that they're usually enemies. However, the sentient/humanoid Daedra have traditionally been listed in the Races section. I guess Gods would probably be most appropriate. If only we had more example demiprinces to go on... —Legoless (talk) 21:48, 4 May 2015 (GMT)

Alandro Sul[edit]

In the Five Songs of King Wulfharth it says "...Alandro Sul, who was the immortal son of Azura...", possibly implying he is a Demiprince. As a Demiprince is the offspring of a Daedric Prince/Lord, this doesn't seem too far-fetched. Thoughts on this? The Rim of the Sky (talk) 17:11, 1 November 2015 (UTC)

Alandro Sul was a Chimer, and isn't the only son/daughter of a Daedric Prince (Molag Grunda comes to mind). The definition of a demiprince from the latest Loremaster's Archive says that the offspring also has to have a sphere, so simply being the progeny of a Prince doesn't automatically make one a demiprince. Unless there's a source directly linking Sul with the term 'demiprince', it's speculation. —Legoless (talk) 17:20, 1 November 2015 (UTC)

Hollowjack[edit]

Would Hallowjack be considered a Demiprince or something else all together especially since he has a realm and is considered a god of fears? Since we don’t know his lineage I know it would be tough to say, but I hope they expound this further on. Hallowjack would be interesting to see as a recurring character.Lguard (talk) 22:31, 4 February 2019 (UTC)

Hollowjack is considered a Daedra Lord, see his lore page and the references given for that status. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 21:52, 5 February 2019 (UTC)

Removed Entry[edit]

The Crow Mother, Nocturnal's "Nether-Niece". She is a Daedra Lord that has taken the form of a Hagraven, and rules over the Crow's Wood pocket realm. The Crow Daedra of the Blackfeather Court are her spawn.

Nothing about this character implies she is a Demiprince. --AKB Talk Cont Mail 12:14, 22 January 2021 (UTC)

I PM'd Legoless when I made this change so he could take a look at this, as I am banned from the discord I have to resort to PMs. He however was asleep at the time. What is your opinion on adding Molag Grunda who is said to be the daughter of Molag Bal in the notes section? Nothing is know about how the term is used in relation to him, but it's been a term used for her for two games now.Zebendal (talk) 12:40, 22 January 2021 (UTC)
You can use talk pages to communicate with other editors if you need feedback on edits, like we are using right now. Adding Molag Grunda would be speculative, but adding a note mentioning that she is stated to be his daughter but is never outright stated to be a Demiprince is much better than adding a character who doesn't even pass that bar. --AKB Talk Cont Mail 12:47, 22 January 2021 (UTC)
If we are adding a note for Grunda we should also mention Ozozzachar. My opinion is that we should avoid listing entities here unless they are specifically described as a demiprince. In these three examples, we do not know if son/daughter/niece implies they are literal offspring. —⁠Legoless (talk) 13:22, 22 January 2021 (UTC)
Grunda and Oz are worth noting, but under the note explaining that it might not be literal. Crow Mother was problematic because if we take niece as literally, she didnt directly come from nocturnal. So far the term Demiprince is only for direct relation.- Zebendal (talk) 13:29, 22 January 2021 (UTC)
What you've described is a grandchild. A niece is the daughter of your sibling.
Since we have no idea what any of these terms mean in a Daedric context, it would be original research to assume they are demiprinces. I think we're already pushing it with Emmeg Gro-Kayra, although he at least meets the definition. —⁠Legoless (talk) 13:36, 22 January 2021 (UTC)

() I could vaguely see some value in it, but I'm going to trust the opinion of the original creator of this page that it would be more problematic than beneficial. That said, with this edit and another recent edit where you added The Eidar Scrolls as an artifact when they aren't described in a capacity that matches our definition for them, I'm a bit worried about these edits being intended to "expand" lore over documenting the lore that exists. With as many topics that we can still legitimately expand upon, we shouldn't be looking to force a certain narrative onto articles, overstate the significance of certain sources, or trying to force a things into a category that they never were meant to be in (this entry is an example of that). Talk pages are also an invaluable source if you are uncertain about an edit, as it provides an easily accessible place for editors to help that is available to all users, unlike a Discord DM. --AKB Talk Cont Mail 13:59, 22 January 2021 (UTC)

"overstate the significance of certain sources". It seems that way but I just put a paragraph that was relevant to the ownership of an artifact, Legoless corrected the block of texts by moving it to the history section. I trust my editors to correct my unintentional mistakes like when I corrected the Skeleton Key's statement of being created by Nocturnal, as that forced a narrative in itself, as the Skeleton Key was never stated to be created by Nocturnal. Now me and Legoless came to a consensus after I pointed out that Daedric Princes adopt artifacts that were not originally created by them, such as Spellbreaker, Volendrung, and Goldbrand, yet have been so linked to the Princes themselves that they can be sacrificed during the quest Blood of the Daedra. As Martin Septim proved, even these artifacts qualify to be used as "blood of a Daedra Lord" to open the path to Camoran's Paradise. Now with the way the page currently is worded, me and Legoless are satisfied as it now emphasizes Nocturnal as the main focus, as it she has been shown to consistently across the entirety of TES. That said, I am still a messy editor and have only barely managed to get an article I have invested a significant portion of my editing time get featured with Hircine, and even then, I am not perfect and have to look to my fellow editors to help me in its expansion.Zebendal (talk) 22:14, 22 January 2021 (UTC)

Darien Gautier[edit]

  • Darien Gautier, the son of a mortal father and Meridia, whose true nature was a "Light of Meridia". He was given his own area in the Colored Rooms during his time there.{{ref|name=ONDarien|[[ON:Darien Gautier#Summerset|Darien Gautier]]'s dialogue in [[Online:Online|ESO]]}}

I've removed this from the page as it is based entirely on speculation. The only source we have on Darien's mother is the following line from him:

"I wish I knew the answer to that. I remember my father well enough. He was a Breton, but I never met my mother. In fact, now that I think about it, my entire childhood is kind of a blur."

Darien's father is General Gautier but there is no evidence that he had a child with Meridia. In fact, from the above dialogue, it sounds like Darien was never a child at all.

Calling Darien a demiprince is entirely unwarranted when he is instead described simply as a "vessel" for Meridia's power. At the end of the Summerset questline, we finally learn his true nature: the last Light of Meridia. For reference, this is a Light of Meridia in crystalline form; it is an artifact that serves as a reserve of her divine power. Darien is simply a Light in himbo form. —⁠Legoless (talk) 21:18, 22 January 2021 (UTC)

I would also point out, we don't know if EVERY child of a Daedric Prince and a non-Daedric Prince automatically IS a demiprince.... it's entirely possible that there are other factors in play. I believe we only have around 3 actual confirmed demiprinces, in that they are actually called that in games, and thus we shouldn't assume the bar isn't higher than simply "my dad was a daedric prince". We know that demiprinces are offspring of daedric princes, we just don't know if ALL offspring of daedric princes are demiprinces.... if that makes sense? Jeancey (talk) 23:12, 22 January 2021 (UTC)
What this source says https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Lyranth_the_Foolkiller_Answers_Your_Questions
We actually do have it defined.
Lyranth the Foolkiller says, "A demiprince is a by-blow of a Daedric Prince or Daedra Lord and a lesser entity, perhaps even a mortal.((This hints strongly that it does not have to be a mortal but a demiprince is the offspring of a Daedric Prince/Daedric Lord and a lesser being)) A demiprince often inherits aspects of its princely parent,((They don't always inherent their princely parents aspects so Legoless is wrong about saying they have to in the Alandro Sul talk section as lore clearly says otherwise )) but it may also be curiously lacking in characteristics such as foresight, memory, cruelty, or willfulness. Some acquire, or are given, minor realms to rule, and many of these of these [sic] pocket realities are bizarre or eccentric, even by the standards of Oblivion. Some demiprinces, such as Fa-Nuit-Hen, are known to occasionally visit the Mundus for the express purpose of interacting with mortals. As I said: eccentric."
The biggest and most important thing, that the lore on it says. Is a Demiprince is the offspring of a Daedric Prince or Daedric Lord, and it has to be a lesser being below that power level of a Prince or a Lord, and mortal is only one possibility. So that could mean all Children between a Daedric Prince/Daedric Lord and a lessor being qualify as a Demiprince. A Prince or a Lord, can easily have offspring with say a Dremora which I do think this source is actually implying. If Daedric Princes can have offspring so can other daedra. Her words that perhaps even a mortal. So the bar is at lesser being then the Daedric Prince.
Edit: I do think Darien should included as a possible Demiprince or this put into notes. There is the actual fact he has a father. We meet that father and the Father is an actual npc. This is an important factor and what Darien says is Meridia brought him into the world in that one note you can find. Should be enough to support adding a note at least. It should be noted that he could be a Demiprince. Do to Meridia's Role in his creation as well as the actual fact he had an actual father. Another Edit here, I've found evidence he did have an actual child hood so he was not placed in the world as an adult. Its in his Dialogue. "Why waste words when I can simply show you. Look around! I've been dreaming about this place since I was a young boy. Seeing it live and in person, that's a bit unnerving. Why couldn't this be that other dream I regularly have?"
TheVampKnight (talk) 00:31, 23 January 2021 (UTC)
ngl I kinda put the Darien entry on the page to see how it would be addressed haha, anyways I sorta agree with vamp. The only ppl for sure belonging on this page are Fa-Nuit-Hen, Pastry Girl, and Daerola, emmeg has just as much right to be here as Darien (for Darien, I asked one of the writers years ago if he was a Demiprince, and since she didn't write him she directed me to ask the zone lead since she didn't know the answer herself). I think we should list every character that has a mortal parent and Daedra parent under "possible" or something, and that Princes' children without a known mortal parentage (Ozzozochar, Molag Grunda) should just be noted as such. It's rly a case of whether someone with a Daedra and Mortal parent a Demiprince or not. The Rim of the Sky (talk) 02:35, 23 January 2021 (UTC)
Even if we were to include a list of every entity with a mortal parent and Daedric parent, there is still no source for Meridia being Darien's mother. It is not the nature of their relationship. —⁠Legoless (talk) 03:45, 23 January 2021 (UTC)
Including a list of "Maybe" demiprinces is dangerously close to original research. Parent is Prince, Prince children might be demiprinces, thus person might be demiprince may seem logical, but it is still inferring a result based on information rather than listing information based on direct evidence. In this case, I would say any list of "Possible" demiprinces should only include those where one source definitively says they are a demiprince, and another source definitively says they aren't. Any other list of "possible" demiprinces would be way too heavy on Original Research to be presented. Jeancey (talk) 00:17, 25 January 2021 (UTC)
Incorrect, the example of a possible Demiprince, in this case the Camoran usurper is used because he is stated by one source to be the son of Molag Bal and a Breton. If this is true then by definition he IS a Demiprince. However, other conflicting sources on his parentage exists. Thus he’s simply a “possible” Demiprince. But the logic behind him potentially being one is based in fact.Dcking20 (talk) 01:43, 25 January 2021 (UTC)
Well that is different, because we have a confirmed source that stated many legends about him had him being the son of a Breton female and Molag Bal and that is why I added it in the way I did. The other ones don't have any sourcing on the other parent. Which is the big key issue here and yeah its something we do have to be careful of and Jeancey is right about that. TheVampKnight (talk) 02:03, 25 January 2021 (UTC)

() I have to disagree with you there. Just because the rumor mill says Molag Bal is his dad doesn't mean it's true, or that we should take it seriously. We can mention it in lore, but I don't think we should consider him a serious "potential demiprince" candidate. "Molag Bal is his father" sounds exactly like the sort of fantastical tale-spinning people would come out with about a violent usurper to disparage them.
In Darien's case: he shouldn't be mentioned at all. Meridia is not his mother. Darien not remembering his mom is not evidence enough for us to put him down as a Demiprince. -MolagBallet (talk) 04:23, 25 January 2021 (UTC)

Emmeg[edit]

Emmeg is undoubtably a Demiprince. Please readd him into the page.Zebendal (talk) 00:37, 26 January 2021 (UTC)

I agree with the removals of darien and the crow chick. Emmeg and Haymon by some stories fit the definition of Demi prince and could stand to be re added, and there was no time given on the discussion to decide a consensus before the removal of these two took place.Dcking20 (talk) 00:56, 26 January 2021 (UTC)
I think we need to take a stricter approach to inclusions on this page. Emmeg Gro-Kayra, Alandro Sul, Haymon Camoran; none of these are ever described as demi-anythings. All demiprinces have Daedric parentage but not every child of a Prince is confirmed to be a demiprince. As AKB mentioned in the above discussion, this seems like an attempt to expand the lore (by retrofitting a new lore concept onto older characters) rather than document it. Until we get official sources to back it up, adding these kind of speculatory entries constitutes official research. —⁠Legoless (talk) 01:12, 26 January 2021 (UTC)
100% agree. Lyranth's statement was likely deliberately ambiguous, but based on the phrasing, and how the english language works, Lego's analysis is correct. Jeancey (talk) 01:25, 26 January 2021 (UTC)
Completely agree with Legoless. "Retrofitting a new lore concept onto older characters" is a succinct and accurate description of what I think was happening on this page. I concur that it would be wise to maintain a stricter outlook of what does and does not belong on this page. -MolagBallet (talk) 01:51, 26 January 2021 (UTC)
I 100% Disagree with Legoless, Its going to cause a lot of problems , It shouldn't have removed it and opened up a big can of worms. Because this is a hot potato of a subject. I agree with Zeb and Dcking and for sure there has to be some type of consensus here. But I honestly think that one would not be reached with this because there are two very opposing sides to this. Those that strongly disagree with to the removal and those that wanted it removed. Also for sure this page is going to be altered by many users to revert it back to add those people in. There will be editing wars because people see the definition and says that is a demiprince that has to be added into this page. I'm quite certain that is going to happen. I've made my feelings about this very clear its a bad idea to remove it as the npc directly states Demiprices are pairings between a lessor being or a Mortal and a Daedric Prince or Lord and we have lore stating these were that type of pairing. It just causes more argument when we just leave it there and just let it be.
Not to mention the source was written by a dev. So it also technically counts as Uol as well, because I see those loremasters things as being that. Also by the way all eight of Vivecs Children with Molag bal would technically qualify as Demiprinces as well under said definition. As Vivec is a lesser being, even though not exactly mortal but still a mortal and Molag bal is a Daedric Prince. TheVampKnight (talk) 02:35, 26 January 2021 (UTC)
First, just wanna say that Loremasters Archive's aren't UOL. They're published by ZOS and Bethesda, and are as such official lore. Also, lets stay focused on Emmeg for now before going into Vivec's maybe-babies.
Anyway, I gotta concur with Dcking and Zeb too. While Haymon is almost definitely not a Demiprince and shouldn't be listed as such, Emmeg fits every definition we have of a Demiprince. I would hardly call reading Lyranths given definition and assigning people who fit under it the role, as 'retrofitting' lore any more than calling Alessia Dovahkiin would be. It's simply recognizing a words definition.
Lyranth's description is also really not that vague. She states unambiguously that "A demiprince is a by-blow of a Daedric Prince or Daedra Lord and a lesser entity, perhaps even a mortal. A demiprince often inherits aspects of its princely parent, but it may also be curiously lacking in characteristics such as foresight, memory, cruelty, or willfulness."
A key factor here is that a demiprince is not exclusively a child of a prince who inherits some abilities from their godly parent, but perfectly mundane people can be demiprinces, which makes it hard to imagine any difference between this powerless demiprince and a hypothetical non-demiprince child of a daedra. It seems unreasonable to say certain characters don't deserve the title when the only bar we're given is parentage.
TL;DR: Emmeg is a good boy who deserves respect. You're all just mean. ): - Jacksol (talk) 04:03, 26 January 2021 (UTC)

() In an attempt to reach some sort of compromise on this issue, I would propose the following be added to the Notes section:

*There are several figures who are believed to be the progeny of Daedric Princes, but it is unknown if they are demiprinces. Such individuals include: [list]

It seems to me that there is no consensus here to add any kind of weight behind the claim that they are demiprinces. However, if people do think these individuals are notable, I think the above format will allow us to mention Princely children on this page and let the links to their individual pages to explain the full specifics. This would also allow the likes of Molag Grunda, Alandro Sul, etc. to be mentioned. —⁠Legoless (talk) 23:55, 6 February 2021 (UTC)

I’m actually cool with this, although I would prefer it to be in the main body instead of the notes because I can think of like 7 or 8 beings with alleged princely parentage off the top of my head and that might make for an obnoxiously long noteDcking20 (talk) 00:27, 7 February 2021 (UTC)
Sounds like a fair compromise. Zebendal (talk) 01:41, 7 February 2021 (UTC)
Having it as a note sounds good to me, I think Legoless' compromise seems good.Imperialbattlespire (talk) 12:49, 16 February 2021 (UTC)
In the absence of opposition I've added the suggested note. —⁠Legoless (talk) 13:12, 16 February 2021 (UTC)