User talk:Nephele/Archive-2010-05

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Plants Near[edit]

Moved from User:Nephele (original revision)

Re: the discussion at Oblivion:Fort Doublecross, that is also relevant to the great majority of location articles, Eshe informs me you were the creator of the 'survey' information, including "The following plants can be found near the entrance:" sentence. It is my opinion (and it turns out, Eshe's also. S'drassa says it is not necessary) that the word for the area surveyed, e.g. 'cell' or '100 yard radius', or whatever it is, would be preferable to the word 'near' in that sentence. What, please, is the area surveyed, exactly, and do you have an opinion about changing the wording? Anarchangel 13:47, 4 January 2010 (UTC)

Sorry about putting that on your user page. Silly mistake. Anarchangel 06:17, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

Cleantable tag questions[edit]

I know you're not around at the moment but in case you're still checking your talk page I've found a couple of things with the <cleantable> tag that could either be a bug in the code, an intentional feature, or a typical rpeh cockup.

The problems appeared after I used cleantable to simplify {{NPC Summary}}. First off, we now have wanted links to Morrowind:Aggression, Oblivion:Alarm, and other similar pages. It seems that cleantable is trimming out the necessary lines because they aren't used, but is still allowing the link to be passed to MediaWiki as a wanted link. Second, when I tried removing the namespace checks on the refid/baseid line, the line started showing on Morrowind pages even though neither param was being supplied. If I deleted the links on refid and baseid and just left them as plaintext, the line stopped appearing. In other words, cleantable seems to be getting confused when there's more than one sub-header with a link in one table row. Or something like that.

Anyway, neither problem is critical. I'm just letting you know in case you feel like looking at it. –rpehTCE 21:22, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

I'm not sure I fully understand how this works, so correct me if I'm wrong: Cleantable removes the header with the link to NAMESPACE:Aggression if {{{aggress|}}} is empty, right? If so, the wanted link is created because the wikicode is parsed before cleantable starts to clean up (it has to be, otherwise cleantable would see {{{aggress|}}}, which isn't empty, so it wouldn't work). If you use #if there are no wanted links because it doesn't evaluate dead branches. (Project:MetaTemplate#Conditional Expressions says otherwise, but that's no longer true starting from MW 1.12 and parserfunctions r27676) -- Nx / talk 22:01, 7 January 2010 (UTC)
I don't know enough about MW internals so I can't say exactly what's happening - I just wondered if there was something I should do differently, if there's something Neph can tweak, or if it's another post-upgrade annoyance. –rpeh TCE 22:38, 7 January 2010 (UTC)
I don't think it can be fixed in cleantable (short of hacking the parser to only do template parameter expansion instead of full wikicode parsing - I don't think the parser can do that now). You could revert to the #if version, but then you get ugly code. -- Nx / talk 22:47, 7 January 2010 (UTC)
I suspect not, but I thought I'd ask the expert :)
It probably won't matter because the next stage of improvements for the NPC summary will move the game-specific stuff out into game-specific templates, that will need including with an if. Assuming that turns out to be a worthwhile thing to do, which it may not. –rpeh TCE 22:52, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

<< I just had the same refid/baseid problem with {{Creature Summary}}. It's the <small> tags fooling cleantable. Instead of | <small>{{{refid|}}}</small> use | style="font-size:85%;" | {{{refid|}}} and the same for baseid. ‒ JoramTalk 01:19, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

As of MT1.0, both issues should be fixed.
The link fix is a hack, although not as bad a hack as I'd feared (I'm not changing the parser expansion -- instead I'm manually removing the parser's bookkeeping info for any links I delete from the page). Which mainly means that it could abruptly stop working with any future upgrade, but I took steps to make sure that if the hack breaks, it at least won't cause any new problems.
As for <small>, a table cell will now be considered empty if it contains any combination of HTML tags and unknown template variables. Before {{{refid}}} would be considered empty, but not <small>{{{refid}}}</small>; now both will be seen as empty. I also fixed a related bug: previously {{{refid}}}non-empty-text{{{baseid}}} would incorrectly be seen as empty, now it won't (but {{{refid}}} {{{baseid}}} is still empty).
Or at least, these issues are all fixed in my simple little test cases. Given the complex stuff you all have been throwing at the extension, I'm guessing it will only be a matter of time before some new unexpected combination arises ;) --NepheleTalk 19:45, 31 May 2010 (UTC)
That's brilliant, Neph. Thank you.
That removes one of the reasons for splitting up the {{NPC Summary}} template. I know we had discussed splitting it up on IRC (for other reasons) and I went ahead and did it because of the wanted page problem. Pace your userpage comment about not turning this into a wishlist, I'd appreciate it if you could give the changes to that template a once-over and advise whether or not you think they're now necessary or whether things can be moved back into one. I must confess I can't quite remember why we decided a split would be a great idea any more. Obviously no hurry. rpeh •TCE 20:11, 31 May 2010 (UTC)
You're welcome -- and thanks for forging ahead with implementing these tools in spite of the bugs and the uncertainty that the bugs would ever be fixed. As for requests on my userpage, I suppose I can't get away with responding to old requests without expecting new ones ;) Not to mention, I'm obviously in wiki-code-editing mode right now, so there are some things that probably trivial for me to handle at the moment. Hopefully I didn't just open up the floodgates! (Perhaps as a counter-incentive... I'm trying to finish up another surprise code change that I think will be popular, so too many new requests might prevent me from finishing it up)
Anyway, back to the actual question. I'm really rusty on the status of NPC Summary and the other mega-templates (other than having noticed lots of entries in recent changes about revamping them). IIRC, Place Summary and its permutations were the most obvious candidates for subpages. I'd guess for NPC Summary it probably comes down to which way is the best balance of readability, maintainability, template size, etc. Not to mention whether it's worth the trouble of changing something that's working. In other words, I don't think I have much to say that you probably don't already know.
Scanning through the current NPC Summary code I can see that it looks much better. If you're looking for thoughts, there are just a couple of minor things that I could come up with. One is that the race and class lines can probably be tweaked some more: I think it's possible to get rid of racens/classns completely (the caveat is is it would require searching out the pages that use those params right now and changing them). Aha... I found where I'd worked out some (untested) code to handle them: User:Nephele/Sandbox/2. The other thought is whether it makes sense to create a common template used for handling images on all these pages; it could make Ingredient Summary's image2/image3/etc. automatically be options on all summaries; other such details developed for one summary's images could also be shared with other pages.
Of course, it's possible those are ideas that have been tested already and turned out to be unworkable. With that, I'll disappear back into the wiki-coding dungeon. --NepheleTalk 22:51, 31 May 2010 (UTC)
Rpeh: I'll also have a look at it when I do Round 2 of template editing, though as you've probably noticed, I've slowed down enough lately that I'm getting rusty on some things. I think I'm a little more "with it" now in terms of the CFS hampering me, so I'll probably pick up the pace a bit in the near future and at least finish off Round 1. It's on my list of things to do to compare Creature Summary and NPC Summary and see if there are things that can be learned from each template, but it's still going to take a while to get there. (Not to mention, I've got the kidney stone operation coming up tomorrow night/Wednesday morning, and I expect to be pretty much flat on my back for a few days after that.) If you'd like, though, I can bump it to the top of my list so it gets looked at a little sooner. Robin HoodTalk 23:36, 31 May 2010 (UTC)
It looks like the latest change to cleantable has introduced a buglet. Arny noticed that the "Next Quest" wasn't showing on Oblivion:Information Gathering and Krusty noted that it wasn't showing anywhere. I played around in the {{Sandbox}} for a while and the only way I could get it to display was to take the cleantable tags out totally. I couldn't work out why the Next param should be affected when, for instance, Prev wasn't. I'll see if I can narrow down the bug but could you take a look to see if any of the changes you made could be responsible? So much for not adding stuff to your talk page, huh? :) rpeh •TCE 11:17, 1 June 2010 (UTC)
Something similar is happening with the {{Book Summary}} template too. The "See Also" link to the Lore version of a book isn't showing up on pages like Morrowind:The Monomyth or Oblivion:Report: Disaster at Ionith. rpeh •TCE 12:26, 1 June 2010 (UTC)
OK, it's fixed. The problem was caused by the strange format links are in at the time when cleantable does its processing. I've got the servers in the process of re-processing any pages that might have been affected. --NepheleTalk 16:08, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

Book Link[edit]

I've included a suggestion for the books on a talk page. This is what it says:

The same text is used for Daedric, Dwemer/Deep One, and Akaviri books. By the way, can someone include a symbolreader/translated version of the Bible of the Deep Ones; like a miniquest with Tarmeena who helps you decipher the mythic dawn commentaries? Defender of Lainlyn 02:11, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

Another problem - #listsaved[edit]

At the risk of being seen to repeat actions with no expectation of success, I have another problem for you to look at should the mood take you.

The #listsaved function looks like it could be a great way to simplify list generation in an awful lot of cases - where books are found, which NPCs appear in certain regions, what locations are Ayleid ruins etc etc etc. The trouble is... I can't get it working. I've followed your example but doing something like your example of {{#listsaved:Place Link|placetype=Ayleid Ruin|namespace=Oblivion|description|maplink}} doesn't give links - just bold bits of text. I've tried various ways of using this potentially very useful command with no luck. Please can you fix the bug or let me know what I'm doing wrong? Thanks. rpeh •TCE 00:04, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

The Place Link template has to be able to handle a call such as {{Place Link|pagename=Oblivion:Anga|placetype=Ayleid Ruin|namespace=Oblivion|description=...|maplink=...}}. In other words, the issue is that Place Link expects the article name to be provided either as "Oblivion:Anga" or as "place=Oblivion:Anga", not as "pagename=Oblivion:Anga". I am actively using #listsaved on a wiki at work to auto-generate tables, one of which now has 70+ entries (and even has nested calls to #listsaved to fill columns as well as rows), so I know it works outside of the wimpy three-entry cases I use when testing the code for bugs. It's mainly a matter of customizing the template to expect the specific parameters that #listsaved uses. --NepheleTalk 19:45, 31 May 2010 (UTC)

Another cleantable problem[edit]

If you ever come back I found another MetaTemplate bug. Compare these two tables in preview. I had to <pre> them, the second made a mess of the page.

{| class=wikitable
|test
|
{| class=hiddentable
|}
|-
|example||example
|}
<cleantable>
{| class=wikitable
|test
|
{| class=hiddentable
|}
|-
|example||example
|}
</cleantable>

‒ JoramTalk 01:08, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

Fixed now (on content1, at least) -- I previewed your example on the sandbox. cleantable should now be able to handle any types of table nesting, as many layers deep as you want (short of running out memory or other consequences of insane examples). --NepheleTalk 19:45, 31 May 2010 (UTC)
Are you suggesting that my examples are insane...or that I might go looking for some? ;) Robin HoodTalk 20:09, 31 May 2010 (UTC)
Suggesting that if you go looking for some insane examples, you might get some insane results ;) And I won't fix the code to handle insane examples... I have enough sane ones to keep me busy! --NepheleTalk 20:16, 31 May 2010 (UTC)
Okay. I'll try to find some insane examples that seem perfectly reasonable in the context of the wiki then, just to annoy you. <evil grin> Robin HoodTalk 23:03, 31 May 2010 (UTC)

Savegame Files[edit]

Nephele, I'm asking around if there is a way to view a save's data (like the player's name, total health, horses stolen, etc.). Or, more simply, how can I view the variables/offsets shown here[1]. 76.171.21.31 06:38, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

The best way is with a standard hex editor and experience in using it, but if you don't have those you can use console commands or search google for a stat or character editor. My preferance would be the console commands, but they only work for PC. If you're playing on xbox you can get an editor, but on ps3 there's nothing to help you. --- Masterlocksmith 08:41, 13 February 2010 (UTC)
I'm on the PC. I don't really need an editor or something like that, I'd just like to know how I can simply view the stats; and take that data and use in something like a program. 76.171.21.31 18:13, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

Create spells higher than your level[edit]

Discussion moved to Oblivion_talk:Glitches#Create spells higher than your level

Hey Nephele - I Apologise[edit]

Last time I was on the Wikia, I gave you and Guildknight a hard time. I am extremely sorry,...If you would please let me stay on this wikia, I would GREATLY Appreciate it, but if you do not want me to be on the wikia anymore, due to my constant abuse to you and him, I definantly would understand and respect that decision, and would not hold a grudge if IP Banned again. Again, I am extremely sorry. I used this wikia pretty much at least once a week while banned, so if you can find it in your heart to forgive me, I would definantly appreciate that very much. I am much mroe mature than I once was, about 3 year's worth more mature. It will never happen again to anyone, I assure it. I realise now you were just cleaning up my constant mistakes without complaints really, and it must of been a real serious burden. So again, i'm sorry. (*P.S. I was the one with the accounts ending in 242621 and with the name 'Troy' signed up. I don't know if you remember me.) Roleplayer242621 18:11, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

Welcome back![edit]

I don't know if your current status warrants a "welcome back", but since you've popped up after a good 8 months, I suppose I might as well say something! ;) It's good to have you back, even if on a scaled-down level. :) --SerCenKing Talk 11:50, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

welcome back from me too!--GUM!!! 13:35, 16 May 2010 (UTC)
And another one. Long time no see! It's good to see you around again. Robin HoodTalk 13:35, 16 May 2010 (UTC)
Never even got to say hello, but I have noticed how much work you have put into the site and I am glad you're back!--Corevette789 14:33, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

Welcome back. --Michaeldsuarez (Talk) (Deeds) 15:46, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

Always a pleasure to have you here! Welcome back! -Goblin lair 18:47, 16 May 2010
Welcome back, Neph! It's great to have you around, no matter the situation! Hope it remains an enjoyable hobby for you. --GKtalk2me 16:52, 16 May 2010 (UTC)
It's good to see you again. I figured NASA landed you a job on the ISS, so I waved everytime it passed over, seems like I was close enough ;) --Timenn-<talk> 13:09, 17 May 2010 (UTC)
Welcome back !!!--TheAlbinoOrc 22:28, 27 May 2010 (UTC)

A bit dated now, but welcome back from me as well. Dlarsh(T,C) 03:10, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

catpagetemplate[edit]

The new catpagetemplate command sounds interesting. I'll have to play around with it and get a better understanding of what can be done with it. I don't know if this is something that would be easy to do, but it would be nice if this could be brought into some kind of per-user format...presumably via the user's skin.js page.

On a related note, I had originally dismissed the idea as unlikely to be worth the time, but given that you've been working in this area, can you have a peek at this discussion and see if there's anything you can add to it? Robin HoodTalk 14:18, 31 May 2010 (UTC)

Done -- assuming the response can be deciphered by anyone. --NepheleTalk 19:01, 31 May 2010 (UTC)
Well, I understood it, though since you mentioned issues with inconsistent code between the three servers, I decided not to play with it just yet. Robin HoodTalk 19:59, 31 May 2010 (UTC)

Deleted Links[edit]

"links deleted from the table should be fully vanished"

Am I misunderstanding this, or is the code not working correctly? Wanted links appear for both Morrowind:Fame and Morrowind:Infamy because these are used in {{Quest Header}} but then hidden since the parameter is never actually passed from a Morrowind page. For now, I'll address the problem in Quest Header, but I thought you'd want to know about the issue. Robin HoodTalk 15:15, 31 May 2010 (UTC)

Also, while I'm still running the Quest Header update, it looks like only Fame and Infamy are being fixed, leaving Disposition and Reputation untouched. This means it's not just a matter of re-saving the templates to trigger an update. I'll wait until this update is done before re-saving the template with fixes for the other linked titles, just to be sure, but if you don't hear anything further, then we can rule out the simple necessity of null-edits to trigger the Wanted Pages to refresh. Robin HoodTalk 15:48, 31 May 2010 (UTC)

The new code version only just went live minutes ago on content1 and content2; it's going to be a few more minutes before content3 gets the new code... assuming I can even do it without bugging Daveh. More once I've got this figured out --NepheleTalk 17:44, 31 May 2010 (UTC)
Well, the situation with content3 still isn't resolved, but if you want to just test things, you can go directly to content1.uesp.net and see the new features in action. Sorry about the confusion caused by my post to UESPWiki:MetaTemplate last night. I'd been editing the page as a way of keeping track during my final round of code tests, but realized at 1am that it would be foolish to start trying to upload the new code (as proven by the 90+ minutes it took me this morning to handle assorted complications). Nevertheless, I wanted to save my edits to UESPWiki:MetaTemplate to be sure they didn't get lost.
In any case, though, you're correct that actually making links disappear for existing pages will take an extra step. The wiki software is pretty stubborn about updating page links -- the page has to be edited, not just purged. Once the code is active on content3, I'll look into a way to forcibly refresh the links from behind the scenes. If I recall correctly, I did something similar once before, so I just need to root around and find the old script. --NepheleTalk 19:14, 31 May 2010 (UTC)
It may not be the best solution, but if null-edits on affected templates are sufficient, as opposed to the pages that transclude them, we can always just do that as we find the ones that are causing red links. Robin HoodTalk 20:02, 31 May 2010 (UTC)

Since you've opened the floodgates[edit]

I think this would be trivial, but I thought I'd ask you first before I see if anybody even likes the idea, just in case everybody loves it and you start muttering under your breath. :) Okay, so here goes...

Quite often when I'm patrolling, I find myself thinking "I'd like a second opinion on this", so I don't patrol it and I let someone else decide. Of course, what happens if everybody thinks the same thing? It'd be nice to have a button where we could ask for a second opinion from another patroller and supply a short text as to why (if it's long, the short text can direct people to the talk page). Then when another patroller comes along (and presumably only a patrollers or admin, so we don't have to worry overly much about our wording), they'll see a "second opinion wanted" window at the top of the page with the explanation as to what the original patroller wanted an opinion on.

Example:

  1. Edit entered: "Bla bla bla silly-but-maybe-useful comment."
  2. Uncertain patroller clicks on Nephele's nifty new link and enters: "This comment is silly and should be removed but should we keep maybe-useful part?"
  3. Second patroller comes along and sees the message at the top of the screen, then either reverts the edit entirely or decides first patroller has a point and the maybe-useful part should be kept.
  4. Now that the edit is patrolled either way, the "second opinion" text can be removed from the database, either as it's patrolled or as a bulk delete operation afterwards.

This is probably not a terribly good example, but is the basic concept as trivial to implement as I think it is? Robin HoodTalk 23:23, 31 May 2010 (UTC)

My first guess is that it's not trivial to implement -- a place to store the comment would have to be created somewhere in the database, either as a new table or by modifying an existing table to add another field. Plus then the interface details. Not that it's necessarily any more difficult than my latest proposal about userspace-only patrollers, but I know I'm more likely to start fiddling with ideas I've already spent some time thinking about. Nevertheless, I'll keep it in the back of my mind and see how I feel after it's bounced around a few times. --NepheleTalk 05:18, 1 June 2010 (UTC)