Oblivion talk:Sigil Stone/Archive 1

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This is an archive of past Oblivion_talk:Sigil Stone discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page, except for maintenance such as updating links.


I'm inclined to think that this page should not be deleted, but instead that most of the relevant content from the Enchanting page should be moved here. We have individual pages for Varla Stones and Welkynd Stones; Sigil Stones are more valuable than either of those kinds of stones. And there are lots of links right now of the form [[Oblivion:Enchanting#Enchanting by Sigil Stones|Sigil Stones]], which suggests that it really would be more direct to just have a Sigil Stone page. In fact, the Enchanting page itself already has a link to Oblivion:Sigil Stone. --Nephele 14:42, 12 September 2006 (EDT)

That works too. Just saw that this new page was made with info which is already duplicated in much more detail elsewhere. I agree that this page is where you would search first for that kind of info, which is why I suggested a redirect, but moving the other stuff here makes sense too. In fact, probably better, since I think that giant chart on the Enchanting page really seems out of place there. --TheRealLurlock 14:46, 12 September 2006 (EDT)

This is the best page ever. Thank you. =) --Random Nighttime Passerby — Unsigned comment by (talk) on 3 November 2006

If the matter of deletion is still up for grabs, I, for one, would also like to request this page doesn't get deleted. The list of possible Sigil Stones is very helpful. -- 08:40, 25 August 2007 (EDT) (Random Nighttime Passerby #2)

I'm totally against deletion - not only because I made the original page :P (Sigil Stones, the one that now redirects here), but because this list is invaluable for me and many I know. --MiSP 14:34, 26 August 2007 (EDT)

This page is no longer being considered for deletion, and hasn't been since 20 September 2006. If it was actively being considered for deletion, there would be some type of banner (i.e., Template:Proposeddeletion or Template:Deletionreview) on the page to indicate that. It's generally safe to assume that conversations from nearly a year ago are no longer active and have been resolved, especially when all of the arguments in the discussion are in favour of keeping the page, the page is still here, and it has been repeatedly modified and improved in the meantime.
And in any case, the discussion was never about whether or not the information provided in this article was useful and should be part of the wiki. The only question was what article would be the most appropriate place to provide the information. As a rule, we do not delete useful information from the site. At the time that deletion was being discussed, almost everything now found on this page was instead located at Enchanting (see, for example, this version of the page). The content of the page being considered for deletion was this.
So please try to remember when you see discussions this old that they are probably completely out of date, and try to take into account that the all of the articles being discussed were probably very different than they are now. --NepheleTalk 15:20, 26 August 2007 (EDT)
Ah, sorry for that. I just picked up the other reply above mine and thought the discussion was active, without thinking of checking the date on the other replies. --MiSP 18:06, 26 August 2007 (EDT)

Weapon Charges

I think we should include the Charge you get from Sigil Stones on this page. Unfortunately, I only know about the Transcendent Sigil Stones as I stayed out of Oblivion for a long time... It's 3360 Lisan al Gaib 15:43, 6 January 2007 (EST)

Good point. I assume you're talking about the total charge of a sigil-stone-enchanted weapon; that should also be accompanied by information on how much charge each weapon strike uses up and how many uses are available (just like all the entries on Generic Magic Weapons). Since I've always used sigil stones for enchanting armor or other apparel, I never stopped to realize that a there would be additional stats needed for weapon enchantments. If anyone has the interest, adding the info to this page would be really useful. I might be able to get to it eventually, but I've got alot of other things on my todo list already. --Nephele 19:20, 6 January 2007 (EST)
Yeah, that's what I meant. However, if I got the point of that page right (just seen it, whoa, gj on that thing), it's for weapons that are found. If you use a Sigil Stone, you're tehnically enchanting it yourself. But I think I see your point, as the enchantments would always be the same for the same type of Sigil Stone. I think it should have a seperate page, although I also think we should put the Charge thing here, cause it's more of a basic info on Sigil Stones Lisan al Gaib 20:38, 6 January 2007 (EST)
I agree completely: sigil stone enchanted weapons are different from generic weapons; all the info on sigil stone enchantments should be included on the Sigil Stone page. I was just pointing to the Generic Magic Weapons page as an example that all the other weapon documentation pages include a "Charge/Cost = Uses" column; that same type of information on charge, cost, and uses would be useful somehow on the sigil stone page. --Nephele 22:47, 6 January 2007 (EST)

Sigil Stone's Level

I'm fairly certain the sigil stone's level is based on your level at either the time of entering the oblivion gate or the Sigilium Sanctus itself rather than your level when you aquire the stone. I know this as a friend of mine entered an oblviion gate and then leveled up and exited oblivion to sleep. I think he ended up going up quite a few levels and then returning to the gate to retrieve the sigil stone only to find that it was stuck at a much weaker level.Grandmaster z0b 19:39, 13 February 2007 (EST)

Is there any chance the case you're describing is for a quest-specific oblivion gate instead of a generic one? Because when I look at the generic sigil stone script (that gets used for just about every gate except the Bruma Gate, the Great Gate, and Cheydinhal's Wayward Knight gate... possibly Kvatch, too), it looks like the level is set at the moment you grab it. Of course, it's pretty easy to misinterpret scripts, so I always like to get confirmation of what really happens you're playing the game. For almost all other items, the level gets determined at the moment when you enter the area (in this case the Sigilum Sanguis), and is then fixed even if you leave and come back (unless you wait more than a week or so of game time, then everything in the area gets reset). But with the sigil stones, they really don't actually exist in the Sigilum Sanguis; all that is really there in the room is the activator. At the moment you activate the glowing orb in the room a script is started, and the sigil stone gets created at that moment, and placed directly into your inventory (using the command player.additem LL2SigilStones100 1). So that is the moment that it looks up the leveled list and does the entire random-item generation; the level and the effects are determined at the exact same time.
The only exceptions are those quest-specific gates that I mentioned, that have specialized scripts. I'll have to do some more digging to track down exactly what each of those scripts are doing. If you happen to know which gate this happened at, that info would be useful to help focus on the most appropriate script. --Nephele 22:00, 13 February 2007 (EST)
Actually, when I dig through even the quest-specific gates, it ends up coming down to the exact same command, player.additem LL2SigilStones100 1, at the moment that the glowing orb is activated. The only exceptions that I've come across (that were puzzling me initially) seem to be orphaned script chunks that aren't actually being used any more. So it's hard for me to see how the level can be determined at any moment before the instant that you go to grab the stone. --Nephele 22:18, 13 February 2007 (EST)
Well I have never tested it myself but I think it was from the Kvatch gate so maybe it has a different script. Is it possible that the level was set when he entered the Sigilum Sanguis? This was a while ago, the other option is that he went up a few levels but not enough to go reach the next stage of sigil stones, ie. he was first there at level 9 and then went back at level 12. Grandmaster z0b 18:00, 15 February 2007 (EST)
The Kvatch gate uses the script MS48SigilStoneScript, which uses the standard command player.additem LL2SigilStones100 1 to create the sigil stone and put it in the player's inventory. This is done after the player activates the sigil stone in the room, as part of the same script that then sets the whole room on fire. So the level, effect, and creation of the stone all happen at the exact same time. I'm guessing perhaps your friend just didn't level up enough to reach a better quality sigil stone. It would be useful for someone to test this in game just to be sure, but I'm just not seeing in the construction set any way that it's affected by the player's level upon entering the room. --Nephele 18:29, 15 February 2007 (EST)
I just did one test of this in a random oblivion gate. Entered as a level 15 character, went all the way through to top level of the Sigilum Sanguis and saved. I checked that if took the Sigil Stone right then, I indeed got an ascendent stone. Went back to the save, ran back out of oblivion, spent about 8 hours out of oblivion training/sleeping/leveling up, and returned as level 17. The world definitely had not reset: it was the same world, and the monsters who had been chasing me before were all still there. So back to the Sigilum Sanguis, and this time I got a transcedent sigil stone. So the level was indeed set by my level at the time that I grabbed the stone, not my level when I first entered the room. If anyone can find any confirmed exceptions, details would be appreciated (which oblivion gate, character levels, sigil stone strength, etc). But in the absence of any definitive info that there are cases where the sigil stone strength gets set earlier, I feel pretty confident saying that the page is accurate: the sigil stone strength is determined at the moment your character grabs the sigil stone. --Nephele 03:24, 20 February 2007 (EST)
I know for a fact that I entered the Kvatch Oblivion Gate as level 12, and while cleaning the whole thing out, went up to level 17. When I grabbed the stone, it was Latent. I have OOO and the Quest Rewards Leveling mods installed though, so I don't know if that affected anything, other than my Latent stone being immediately replaced with an Ascendant, and then that one was immediately replaced by a Transcendant. I also don't have the official patch installed, if that makes a difference. Also, I stayed in the gate the whole time, I never left until I closed it. --Vilhazarog 19:08, 22 February 2007 (EST)
How did you level up without leaving the gate? I don't know of any bedrolls or beds for sleeping in Oblivion, and you need to sleep to level up (that's why I had to leave in my test). All leveling calculations are done based on your character's actual level (not based on the level that you would have if you slept). However, it's also possible that mods are altering behaviour in this case; 000 in particular changes a lot of things. --Nephele 19:36, 22 February 2007 (EST)
Oh yeah, forgot, I also have the AF Leveling mod, does away with sleeping for levels and worrying about efficient leveling. (With those three mods, most of my issues with the game design are fixed and I'm having much more fun now.) Anyway, having thought about it, I'm pretty sure OOO is doing this, it probably locked the Kvatch sigil stone at Latent regardless of what level you are when you grab it, this is the type of thing that it does. So, original poster's friend was probably running OOO like I am. Mystery solved. --Vilhazarog 20:37, 22 February 2007 (EST)
I can confirm that OOO some things regarding the level of Sigil Stones. I don't know for sure exactly what, but it isn't the same as vanilla. --MiSP 06:35, 23 February 2007 (EST)
In OOO 1.31, I'm still seeing Latent stones at level 20. The earliest that I remember seeing a Latent stone is level 16. So I'm not exactly sure what the "range" is before I'll see the 4th level of Sigil Stones while running OOO 1.31. I was initially thinking that OOO did an "every 5 levels", but it could be a lot longer. Snabbik 23:08, 23 May 2007 (EDT)
This Gamespot forum thread states that OOO's levels for Sigil Stones are 1/9/15/21/27. I have not tested that for myself, but it's consistent with what's being reported here: a Sigil stone grabbed at level 15 or 17 would be Latent, and you'd still be seeing Latent stones at level 20 running OOO. --Rmunn 15:08, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

Rarity of sigil stones?

is there a high/low drop-chance of the different sigil stones, i just spendt a lot of time trying to get a transcendent sigil stone with feather, i did the save before grap trick and i went through like 100 stones, passed 4-5 chameleon, before i got one. is it controlled by luck/level/equipment or was i just VERY unlucky — Unsigned comment by Magelund (talkcontribs) on 20 February 2007

Just unlucky :| There are equal chances of receiving any of the 30 possible sigil stones. --Nephele 12:16, 20 February 2007 (EST)
It only seems like there's a low chance of getting certain ones because you want that specific stone instead of the other 29 types (I know from trying to get Chameleon and Spell Absorb stones). Felindre 14:31, 29 July 2008 (EDT)
It's controlled completely by luck of the draw and nothing else,not because you want one more.-- 00:40, 1 March 2009 (EST)

Limited number of each?

Is there a limit to the number of each type of sigil stone you can recieve? I used 4 that have a fortify magicka effect, and in the last gate I spent ten minutes trying to get another one with no luck. It's quite possible that with 60 gates and 30 stone types, there is a limit to 2 of each. Two different types of sigil stones have fortify magicka, so I may have gotten two of each, and can't get a fortify magicka sigil stone again. (One has absorb magicka for an attack effect, and the other has damage magicka) Chris3145 20:07, 4 April 2007 (EDT)

I doubt there's a limit since the type of sigil stone is just determined through a standard leveled list, not through any type of script. In other words, it's just a straight 1 in 30 chance that you'll receive a given sigil stone each time you try. There's no mechanism to make the selection any fancier than that. --Nephele 20:41, 4 April 2007 (EDT)
Ah, but what code are they running to effect randomization? ;) No such thing as random in computer games, tha' knows. Anarchangel 02:47, 5 January 2010 (UTC)

Sigil Stone Decorations

In my game, although it takes several casts to find the sweet spot, sigil stones can be moved through the Mysticism effect of Telekinesis. Can someone confirm that this is a feature of the game itself and not a mod or whatnot? Although it is true that they cannot be z-key manipulated once dropped (like in a house) I am able to use the Remote Manipulation spell to find the catch point, which often takes several recasts trying to find it, and move the stone that way like any other item. If confirmed, can someone add? — Unsigned comment by (talk) on 10 April 2007

Stocking Up

This is my fourth character and fourth time playing the main quest (finally I know what I'm doing)... I am now at the point where I would like to beginning "stockpiling" sigil stones to be used for items I acquire later on (Zealot’s Robe, scruffy shoes...) but would like to know if there is a "chance" that they will "disappear" from the chest I put them in (jewelry box @ Frostcrag)?????--Skober 06:45, 10 May 2007 (EDT)360 User

As long as you're not planning to uninstall the Frostcrag Spire mod, your sigil stones should be completely safe. All of the containers in Frostcrag are safe for storage (non-respawning) and sigil stones don't have any type of special disappearing property. I've got a few that I've kept stored in a cupboard in the Cheydinhal house, and they've stayed there during many hours of game play.
One initially scary glitch that can happen if you start to store a lot (hundreds) of items in one container is that some items will stop showing up in the container's inventory. But the items really are still there, and will show up if you start emptying everything else in the container, or if you use the "take all" option (I deal with this problem all the time, since I obsessively keep everything I find while playing, and the items really do re-appear). --NepheleTalk 10:49, 10 May 2007 (EDT)
The glitch you mention is probably why I had some sigil stones turn up missing; About two days ago I had acquired 3 feather sigil’s & stored them in the jewelry box, but when I went to get one back, they were all gone! So, I panicked and reloaded my last save file (had off auto-save on travel turned off) and lost my progress. In the 8 months I’ve had this game, I’ve never experienced this problem… But now I know!
Thanks for answering 2 questions at once!--Skober 03:44, 11 May 2007 (EDT)
I'm beginning to think that if (for example) you were trying to get a Chameleon Sigil Stone and your illusion level is less than 50 there's a much smaller chance that you will get it.

I sat there for 4 hours trying to get a Chameleon Sigil Stone and it never came.

Sigil Stone Glitch

I have noticed if you press the take button(space bar) quickly while retrieving sigil stones you can often get more than one, often with different effects. — Unsigned comment by (talk) on 14 June 2007

I just tested this repeatedly, and yes, this works. I didn't have any problem getting 3 stones before the gate was closed in this way. Simply keep activating the stone untill you're loading - It's even possible to quickload after the third stone if you don't like them. -ChromeBallz — Unsigned comment by (talk) on 18 April 2008
Just a confirmation and an explanation here - you can do this, but only with quest-related Oblivion Gates. I am not certain what makes one so, but examples are: the Wayward Knight Gate at Cheydinhal, the Kvatch gate, etc. It may even also be every "Special" gate at each city for the Allies For Bruma quest. If you do this with a "random" Oblivion gate (the ones that pop up all over the place), this little trick won't work. I noticed this little factoid wasn't mentioned in the Sigil Stone article, so I've added it to Bugs - that's what it is, at any rate. Good find! -- Guest 07:20, 16 August 2008 (EDT)
I'm not about to go check them all out in the Construction Set, but I just checked the two you mentioned, and have confirmed that this is, indeed, true. The scripting for the random gates is correct, but for both of the above, there's a line missing in the script which allows you to take stones multiple times. In both cases, the problem is fixed by the Unofficial Oblivion Patch --Robin Hood (TalkE-mailContribs) 13:41, 22 August 2008 (EDT)

Another Sigil Stone Glitch

One thing that I've realised while playing Oblivion for Xbox360 is, when taking the Sigil Stone, right after you take it open the wait window but do not wait. Instead cancel the wait and listen; the sound gets all messed up. It's pretty funny. --Zoriak 19:33, 24 July 2007 (EDT)

Yet Another Sigil Stone Glitch

NOTE: I made this a new heading... it is its own problem, and deserves to be promoted, I think. Vegtabill 14:05, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Help! In the Kvatch oblivion, I battled my way to the top and grab the sigil stone. it said it was added and the screen got all firey, then bright white, then faded back and I was still in oblivion. It gave no explanation about it. I tried to walk out of oblivion, but as soon as i traveled two floors down, the world got bright white again and I can only see an object starting at 1/2 a foot away from it? What happened and how can I fix it? --Karma 11:40, 11 November 2008 (EDT)

I have seen a few posts for this on the web, but no cause or solution. Now I am experiencing it myself. Anyone have any clue what might cause this to happen, and possibly how one might go about fixing it? ANY help would be appreciated! 06:48, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Get out of the tower, got to the gate and use the console, type closecurrentobliviongate, only way to do it, i had the same problem and used the console to close it. -Littleork— Unsigned comment by (talk) at 01:32 on 25 August 2009 (UTC)


I've been working on them, and I'll probably get done today, but someone should double-check just in case. I could check it myself, but as soon as school starts (tomorrow) I won't be able to even go within 5 feet of the computer (my parents' rules). I regret to say this will be the last major thing I do until a school break. (Actually, I regret to say this is the only major thing I've ever done.) --Vesna 13:52, 29 July 2007

Thanks for doing that, Vesna! I tried to look through it all and do a few sanity checks; all I found were a couple really minor typos :) I'm guessing more detailed checking will just gradually happen as people use the info. Sorry to hear we'll be losing you for a while, but following your parents' rules is always best :) --NepheleTalk 17:54, 29 July 2007 (EDT)

Sigil Stones are Determined when?

I was checking the recent edit here. I just noticed the article here says that the stone's power is determined when you first pick it up. I though it was when you first enter the Sigillum room? Does anyone know for sure? Vesna 00:21, 18 October 2007 (EDT)

Yes, the stone's power IS determined when you first pick it up. You can see for yourself by saving before you pick up a stone, check it's power, then re-load, and pick it up again. It will most likely be different. Allanon
I can also confirm that the stone's properties are established when you pick it up. I have saved my game in a situation where I'm inches from a sigil stone and all I have to do is pick it up. By picking up the stone, checking its properties and then loading my saved game and redoing the whole process for a total of 10 times, I have gotten similar properties only twice.--Crapulax 20:24, 17 July 2008 (EDT)
You don't even have to save before activating the stone; I always save during the 4-6 second delay between the time I activate the stone and the time it's added to my inventory. The properties on the stone aren't determined until it's actually added to your inventory (you could save just before you actually get it, then it'll be different each time you load it). In regards to Vesna's comment about the stone's power being determined when you enter the room: that's only for the rank of the Sigil Stone (e.g, if you enter at level 10, it'll be a Latent Sigil Stone); even then, the rank's only determined once you actually pick it up. Felindre 14:24, 29 July 2008 (EDT)

Strange Value

When I removed a Sigil Stone from my inventory, and left it on the ground, a strange symbol appeared when I highlighted it, that looked like a lower case 'i', or a tower with an orb above it. The value for this symbol was 45, but I do not know what it was displaying the value of. Any ideas? --Merco 08:16, 2 November 2007 (EDT)

I think it stands for how many uses you get out of it when it's enchanted with a weapon. Therefore, it means you have 45 times to attack an enemy with it before you have to recharge it. Bryanmichael11 21:58, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

Barter Cost

I'm just looking through the list of effects, when I realise: there's over 60 Oblivion Gates, and thus 60 Sigil Stones in the game. But you only have 10 items slots to equip yourself with. Add in another 5-10 rings, amulets and spare weapons, and that means you still have around 40 spare Sigil Stones. I can't really see the a player needing more than this, and thus you'd use the rest just to enchant some random item before selling it for some excellent gold. I'm thinking to add a third column to the small table that shows the Stone type corresponding to the player's level, which would show the best Sigil Stone to use if you want to enchant an item just for maximum gold after selling it. Any thoughts? Ong elvin 07:08, 16 January 2008 (EST)

Actually, scratch that idea. The Spell Absorption effect is always the most lucrative option. And even then most of the other options give good cash anyway, enough to bring you close to the merchant's limit. Ong elvin 07:27, 16 January 2008 (EST)


How do you get around the bottom bug? — Unsigned comment by (talk) on 23 January 2008

By this I think he meant that the last bug states: "Sigil Stones occasionally cannot be removed from the Sigillum Sanguis; placing the cursor over the stone will have no effect, and the player will be unable to activate the stone." I think he's looking for a remedy for that bug, which ironically, I was as well (not that I've run into it yet, but I like to be prepared). --Alaston

Can they be duplicated?

I will begin testing later tonight, to answer this question, using the scroll duplication method. --Scxe 13:41, 27 February 2008 (EST)

Yes, they can in fact be duplicated via the scroll method. Quite amusing, to drop 1200 sigil stones at the top of a stair case :P. --Scxe 11:48, 29 February 2008 (EST)
Do the duplicates have the same effects? --Debatra 14:58, 26 June 2008 (EDT)
Yes the duplicates will have the same effects. Kevindrosario 15:10, 26 June 2008 (EDT)

Multiple Stones

(moved from the article)
  • Rapidly clicking on the Sigil Stone in the Sigillum Sanguis until the Oblivion gate is closed will cause an additional randomly generated Sigil Stone to be added to your inventory. The second stone will have a different enchantment, it is not a duplication of the first stone. Saving and loading after receiving the second stone will make it possible to receive a third stone through additional clicking.
I've moved this because all we have is a vague, anonymous statement that it happens on one version of the game. There's nothing that suggests a difference can exist between the versions of the game so I'm now treating this as wrong until proven otherwise. If somebody can give the exact circumstances under which this occurs then fine. Until then, it comes off. –RpehTCE 17:12, 26 May 2008 (EDT)
I can confirm this, if you rapidly press use/grab when you're taking the stone then it adds more than one to your inventory, in my case 3. They all had the same name but had different stats so they aren't duplications of each other. --BigRussian 12:26, 14 July 2008 (EDT)
I can also confirm this occurrence, at least for an unpatched PC version. I've been able to get two stones from the same sigilum sanguis on a few occasions but it's not a common occurrence. I'm still checking the exact timing of it. At first, it seemed to me that you had to wait for the "descendent/subjacent/transcendent sigil stone added" message to disappear before you tried grabbing the stone again but it didn't pan out. This is preliminary; does anyone have more info on the timing of this ?--Crapulax 20:29, 17 July 2008 (EDT)
I have the PS3 Version I can grab 2 sigil stones also. Doesnt always work. I noticed that it happens in the gate outside of Kvatch. I saved before I picked it up and then I tried it about three times before I got the feather and every time I got two. Ive managed to do it a couple of times after that. I dont know what the basis is but I did activate the sigil stone step back to the red part of the floor went back up to it to activate it again.

So far, I've only been able to get it to work on the realms associated with cities, not the "random" realms. Perhaps it's a side effect from scripts related to the Allies for Bruma? 01:00, 15 June 2009 (EDT)

This bug is fixed by the Unofficial Oblivion Patch, it's caused by certain set-gates (gates which enter a preditermined world and are opened in predetermined places, like those found in the Allies for Bruma quest and Kvatch etc. etc.) that lack a line of script which is present in most of the gates. The line prevents the Sigil Stone from being activated multiple times (the Sigil Stone in the Sigil Keep isn't actually an obtainable object, it's just a trigger that creates Sigil Stones and gives them to the player) and thus prevents the player from obtaining multiple Sigil Stones from one gate. Nacht 18:25, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

Just to Clarify, not all set-gates lack this line in the script Nacht 18:27, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

Different item has different strength (Feather)

In the 360 version I have noticed a discrepancy when using Sigil Stones to enchant items with Feather. I'm using Transcendant stones, and for any other enchantment it works ok eg. Detect Life 180ft on say, a hood, gives exactly that, 180ft of Detection. With Feather it seems entirely dependant on the item, at least for me. Enchanting Green Velvet Shoes, shows 125pts when you highlight the item itself, but when you go into 'Active Effects' it is only giving 108pts. Green Silk Garments give only 110pts of Feather. I tested a couple of Rings, 2 of each type, 1 with Feather, and 1 with Light. The Light enchanted as expected, but the other 2 rings both produced 0 Feather! I'm assuming this is just some bug I have stumbled upon? gavin19 14:53, 9 June 2008 (EDT)

Sounds like this bug. If not, please give some more detail. –RpehTCE 14:59, 9 June 2008 (EDT)
It was indeed that very bug. Just out of curiousity, I over-encumbered myself and duplicated the 0 Feather ring I mentioned. When I picked the 2 rings up, the original ring still had 0 Feather, but the duplicate had the proper 125. gavin19 06:56, 10 June 2008 (EDT)
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