Lore talk:Jel

Ixtaxh-thtithil-meht

Hello,

It's about the translation of "Ixtaxh-thtithil-meht", if the expression appears in the novel, it was not translated in it. In fact, no surviving English text contains its translation. For what I know, the translation of it came from an old version of "The Monomyth" published by MK on the lore-forum.

The French version of Morrowind contains the beta version of the books rather than the final version, notably for the Monomyth, the Arcturian Heresy, the Racial Phylogeny... And then, in the French version of the Monomyth, we have the translation of "Ixtaxh-thtithil-meht". You can find this version here, we have highlighted the differences with the final version of the text.

--Lady freyja (talk) 10:35, 6 March 2015 (GMT)

Ah, thanks! I could've sworn that it was translated in the novel. Thank you, I'll source it!--IceFireWarden (talk) 20:01, 6 March 2015 (GMT)

Somewhat related to that, I have just removed the individual parts of "Ixtaxh-thtithil-meht"; we know what the phrase as a whole means as described above, but simply mapping "thtithil" -> "egg" due to word order is impossible – there is absolutely nothing that says Jel uses the same structure as English rather than any of the many other ones, usless the French Monomyth looks at each part of the phrase in turn (and from what I've seen of it, it doesn't).

Also, since I recently combed through Infernal City looking for anything it had on Jel and the saxhleel in general, I can verify that the pyramid was described and briefly visited, but that the name was never translated. WovenTales (talk) 20:30, 12 November 2015 (UTC)

In fact, there's a following line in ESO: "I am a protector of thtithil. They are the seed from which new prupose will sprout; the egg from which new life will emerge. They are the future and must be guarded in these dangerous times." Now I can't be 100% certain of the context, but I'm pretty sure this is said during the quest at the Hatching Pools, where you have to save the Argonian eggs from the Aldmeri Dominion. Based on this, I'm going to bring this word back to the article. --Vordur Steel-Hammer (TINV1K) 02:31, 13 November 2015 (UTC)

Ah, I haven't played through ESO yet. Thanks for the new knowledge! Messes with my plans for constructing the language a bit (really, why would the very rough equivalent of "baby" be more complex than both "exact" and "breaker") but nice to see them putting it to use again. WovenTales (talk) 04:57, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

Keshu

Whatever happened to this book, if I remember it was datamined near the start but its not in the eso librarys or the data from the uesp logger. Silence is Golden^{Break the Silence} 01:30, 11 July 2016 (UTC)

Seems to still be in the data files. I guess it just doesn't appear in-game. It could be destined for Murkmire, which has been delayed. —Legoless (talk) 01:42, 11 July 2016 (UTC)

Should we remove or suppress the info gathered from it, or tag it oog for now? Silence is Golden^{Break the Silence} 01:47, 11 July 2016 (UTC)

For the sake of this language article it's probably alright to tag as OOG, but I don't think we should necessarily incorporate its contents anywhere else in lorespace. For now, I think it's fair to assume it's just pre-release content. Might have to revisit that if it remains unpublished though. —Legoless (talk) 01:54, 11 July 2016 (UTC)

Two years since later, Keshu books have been sighted within Murkmire. Probably need to rethink the references.--Talyyn (talk) 02:49, 24 October 2018 (UTC)

Pakseech

Hello there, The White Guar here. I was discussing with MoonSugarLeader regarding the word "Pakseech," which is (according to the Blackwood Company page) a word describing a Khajiiti clan chair. How did this word end up in Jel? Was this a mistake? — Unsigned comment by 24.16.145.195 (talk) at 18:42 on 22 September 2018 UTC

Hey, it seems to be a mistake indeed. I've removed it for now. Thanks for pointing it out! Tib (talk) 22:47, 15 November 2018 (UTC)

Improvements

Now with ESO Murkmire DLC out, and a lot of new Argonian lore - and Jel words - I've reworked this list a little bit, summarizing here:

• The "ESO dialogue" is now completely specified (note - not everything is documented on UESP yet though)
• Unreferenced words now have a "fact" tag
• Added lot of new words, most of Murkmire is now documented
• Added a little bit of speculative words, taken from their usage and appearance in word combinations. P.S. These do not need to be referenced! The original words where they are taken from already have a reference
• Corrected a few typos, removed incorrect explanations
• Changed capitalization. True names - always capitalized. Everything else - only first word in beginning of sentence/list/paragraph and so on. (note - in game texts and dialogue are inconsistent and thus not reliable regarding this)

I think this is all right now. For giving cookies please go to my talk page. Tib (talk) 22:47, 15 November 2018 (UTC)

Dictionary structure

Current dictionary have close to no structure where pure vocabulary words mix with creature or tribe names, places, rites, beliefs, etc.

I suggest to start to split the structure roughly as follows:

• Names
• Vocabulary

The first one should obviously include all the known names for all the creatures, tribes, structures, social rites and roles or whatever else. While we will keep the second part strongly for WORDS that are oftenly used in various combinations to get all the names from the Names list. Will that be okay? — Unsigned comment by Listens-to-Air (talk • contribs) at 18:06 on 28 November 2018 (UTC)

That could work, I also suggest that instances with fully Jel sentences get added (separate section?), eg Kassandra and "Gulvo vakka-lo Kajin-Jat!". So we can see the words in full context and not just scattered around the dictionary-split from each other --Talyyn (talk) 14:40, 1 December 2018 (UTC)

Agreed with making section for fully Jel sentences (such as chants, or expressions, or whatever). Met a few of them in Murk...--Listens-to-Air (talk) 16:47, 1 December 2018 (UTC)

As we discussed above I decided that it would be wise first to test out our new dictionary structure. So I created a sandbox page for future reworked Jel article here: Sanbox. Pls feel free to contribute or rework that in order so we could then expand the main jel article itself. I also plan to add the jel word composition section there later. I higly would like you to review it too. Thanks! --Listens-to-Air (talk) 10:40, 15 December 2018 (UTC)

It's a very good idea to give this page more structure because with the Murkmire additions there's a lot of information available about Jel. I don't understand the point of the Phrases section though, as it contains only single words right now, not phrases. These belong to the first section (Words). Tib (talk) 16:31, 7 February 2019 (UTC)

Original Research Section (keep below)

Accordingly to the non-inclusion of Original Research rules, Jeancey remark and this discussion on his page it was suggested that we would remove all non 100% confirmed (suggested) word meanings from the Jel article. However, in order just to not loose all the work and in order to keep some very good suggested and restored word meanings we should keep it in this section. If you have any notes and/or additions to that point, pls feel free to post it here. Listens-to-Air (talk) 04:45, 26 September 2019 (UTC)

I have removed the text that was previously in this section, as it was just a copy of the word list from the main article as it was at the time of the post. Since that's already in the article's history, it served no purpose here and only made the talk page difficult to work with. – Robin Hood  ^(talk) 01:23, 17 July 2020 (UTC)

Argonians have no concept of time???

The section "Jel and time" makes some pretty meaty claims about the way Argonians perceive time that I can't find any reference to elsewhere. It seems to believe that Argonians have no concept of time whatsoever, with the reference leading back to the book it's quoting, but this ignores the fact that Argonian culture was primarily inspired by indigenous Mesoamerican civilizations like the Maya. The Maya language has no concept of what a tense is either, and they still know what time is and are able to communicate time perfectly well. Hell, it's pretty obvious that Argonians have a concept of time because no culture that believes all time is a single instant would have a creation myth. However, I am not confident enough in my knowledge of Argonian culture to remove this bit myself (just in case it somehow is correct), so I leave it up to someone else. Rekkandevar (talk) 17:30, 5 September 2020 (UTC)

It's very confusing, but they do have some concept of time, just not in the same way other cultures do. The Argonians know what time is, it's just more fluid to them. I've altered the section to better reflect this. This book explains the way Argonians view the passage of time from the view of a foreign scholar. -MolagBallet (talk) 17:57, 5 September 2020 (UTC)

Lut-Eilel, Sharp-Eyed

In DLC Darkforest you find in south the Sharp-Eyed, the Lut-Eilel. It seems to me, Lut-Eileel is meant (ei-eye, leel-tribe) but, that's not my part. I think 'lut' means sharp. — Unsigned comment by 87.171.101.195 (talk) at 18:30 on 12 May 2022 (UTC)

Necrom

Some notes from Necrom:

Kaj-kujei - elder brother

Deek-nujei - little sister

— Unsigned comment by 103.224.116.235 (talk) at 15:01 on 6 June 2023