Lore talk:Ehlnofey

Are the Aedra Considered Ehlnofey?

First of all, ARE the Aedra considered Ehlnofey? I'm not sure, but I'm leaning towards no. Need to look it up. And second, we might as well just dispense with the categories and write it all out, or maybe at least get text on the page before trying to format it.Temple-Zero 20:42, 6 August 2008 (EDT)

Heh, half of what is there came from our dictionary entry. Again, I thought this needs more then the three lines that were [[Lore:Dictionary_E#Ehlnofey|here]]. Don't feel constrained by the categorization, by all means write it out. I don't know enough about the subject to do so myself ;) --Benould^•T•C 20:50, 6 August 2008 (EDT)

The sources I've read indicate the Aedra and Daedra are classified as a type of being known as et'Ada, and the Ehlnofey are the offspring of the Aedra. They're the step between Aedra and mortal races. I'm not sure where beings like the Hist or Dragons fit into this tree of life, though. Many questions remain unaddressed. - Pilaf the Defiler — Unsigned comment by 64.253.223.247 (talk) at 03:09 on 9 November 2012‎

Not a race, why?

I don't know how to fix it, but this page should be in the Races category. Phoenix Neko (talk) 17:30, 5 December 2016 (UTC)

Expansion and separation per belief system

I'd like to propose that the article be separated into sections corresponding to the different beliefs/narratives we have on the Ehlnofey, each going into detail on the particular origin.

The Ehlnofey from the Annuad and the 12 Worlds are distinct from the Ehlnofey from Heart of the World or Before the Ages of Man despite sharing a name. The Ehlnofey of the Annuad (as inhabitants of one of the 12 Worlds preceding it) predate a Nirn formed directly by Anu, the formation of which leads to the "god and demons" of the world also forming after it, birthed from the blood of the brothers (Anu, Padomay) when it is spilled.

The Ehlnofey of Heart of the World and Before the Ages of Man are a sub-group of the original Et'Ada which create Nirn themselves.

Also perhaps some additional info on the exact mechanisms of the believed origin and the gradual progression it describes:

In Heart of the World we are told that:

"Some escaped, like Magnus, and that is why there are no limitations to magic. Others, like Y'ffre, transformed themselves into the Ehlnofey, the Earthbones, so that the whole world might not die. Some had to marry and make children just to last. Each generation was weaker than the last, and soon there were Aldmer. Darkness caved in. Lorkhan made armies out of the weakest souls and named them Men, and they brought Sithis into every quarter."

And Varieties of Faith and the PGE 3: Blessed Isle define the members of the merish pantheons as among their believed genealogical ancestors, the former mentions how the Altmer and Bosmer claim "direct descent from Auri-El", and the latter names Auri-El, Trinimac, Phynaster and Syrabane as elvish ancestors (in the literal sense).

In Onus of the Oghma which quotes the "Aldmeriad" the "earliest origin saga of the elves", we have Xarxes address the Aldmer as "true children of the Et'Ada" and other elvish texts claims of the the Altmer that "Our genetic lineage can be traced to the original Aldmer race, through the Ehlnofey to the divine et'Ada themselves."

And Aedra themselves are variously described as the "mortal gods" (The Prophet and Umaril) or the "dead gods" (Vastarie) who "told the tale of their own deaths" (Psijic Compromise) and have Mundus "serve as their cemetery" (Lyranth's 2nd LM Archive) who can be "killed per the contract of creation" (Aedra and Daedra book). Akatosh himself has been described as a "dragon ghost" (Glorious Upheaval).

While a number of the sources might be superfluous to mention and (much like the Annuad and Heart of the World) might reflect different beliefs, overall the elvish perspective would be: The Aedra created the world and we are their descendants that resulted over time through a phenomenon of diminishment of each consecutive generation compared to the last (Ehlnofey-Aldmer-Altmer and so on as distinct stages each). So you get from Dringoth the giant to more modern elves/men/so on.

Given half the elven pantheon is named as ancestors personally I'd also question what meaningful distinction we can drawn from "Aedra" at all, in the text Ehlnofey are just "those who made children to last" and the elven gods fit the description. To state such directly in the absence of a direct statement I'm not sure about, but regardless I would argue that the description of minor spirits that degenerated into mortals (from the related Aedra article) be adjusted/elaborated upon.

Normally I'd just attempt to edit myself and wait for feedback but, given how nebulous the topic of the Ehlnofey is in general, I thought it best to ask for opinions/suggestions before attempting any changes.

Apologies if I was too longwinded, going to wait for feedback now.

--Gleaming Veil (talk) 20:08, 2 February 2024 (UTC)

The entire topic is hard to tackle that I think separating it in some capacity would be great.Analeah Oaksong (talk) 20:10, 2 February 2024 (UTC)

I completely agree, there's a near identical separation on Lore:Nede regarding their origins. This case could be much the same, separating the two theories (aboriginal beings vs. ascended spirits) into a split box. Even MK officially condoned this theory, search "Correct." in here to see that. Mindtrait0r (talk) 21:57, 2 February 2024 (UTC)

Thank you both for the feedback, I'll start on a version with separate sections for each origin as soon as I can. --Gleaming Veil (talk) 03:27, 3 February 2024 (UTC)

Trinimac identified as an Ehlnofey in Lord of Souls ?

Been going over the starting chapters of Lord of Souls and noticed something interesting. In page 9, where Attrebus is recounting the tales he heard of Malacath as a child to Silhansa/disguised Malacath, he says the following:

I don’t tell it as well as she did,” he admitted, “but I remember the tale.” He paused for a moment, remembering Helna’s singsong voice. He closed his eyes and pictured his bed, and her sitting there, hands folded. For just an instant he felt the shadow of the comfort he’d known then, the innocence that had protected him from the world.

“In the bygone- by,” he began, “there was a hero named Trinimac, the greatest knight of the Ehlnofey, champion of the Dragon of Time

The tale identifies Trinimac directly as the "greatest knight of the Ehlnofey, champion of the Dragon of Time", as such, should he be added as a notable member of the group ? Normally I'd be hesitant to name any deity directly given how nebulous the concept is, but in this case at least we've Trinimac being named as one directly (in at least some beliefs).--Gleaming Veil (talk) 19:09, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

It's worth mentioning it for a significant deity like him.Analeah Oaksong (talk) 20:08, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

I would be careful, since in English that phrase can just mean that he's the knight/champion who serves the Ehlnofey, not neccesarily that the is one themselves. Like someone being referenced as the "greatest knight of the Kings of England, Champion of King Richard", you wouldn't assume that person IS a king of england themselves. Jeancey (talk) 20:45, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

Yeah,though, I'm not sure what else he could be ? The only definition we get for Ehlnofey, in the context of elven myth and not the Annuad at least, is that they:a) stayed after Magnus left and b) "made children to last", and Trinimac fits both descriptors (since the PGE names him as an elven ancestor in the genealogical sense).In that context I think Attrebus' description being "the greatest knight among the Ehlnofey" flows more naturally. Add it as a note rather than an outright statement of membership with the exact wording to account for every reading, perhaps ?Like "Trinimac has been called the greatest knight of the Ehlnofey in certain Cyrodiilic tales ?" or such ?--Gleaming Veil (talk) 21:43, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

That works, keeps it vague and accurate to the source. Mindtrait0r (talk) 21:55, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

I agree, a note works. It definitely could be read either way, which makes a note the best method. We might want to spell out something like "This could mean that Trinimac was an Ehlnofey, or simply served the Ehlnofey" Jeancey (talk) 22:50, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

Yeah, plus that way implicit statements about anyone else can be avoided (if Trinimac alone is named directly). I added it as a note that he was described in that manner in certain Cyrodiilic folktales, with the exact wording Attrebus used. Thought of mentioning it as a 4E belief in particular, but there's no mention of how far back the tale goes exactly, so left it as is.--Gleaming Veil (talk) 23:03, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

I think the note we now have on the page looks good 👍 The Rim of the Sky (talk) 00:06, 10 February 2024 (UTC)