Lore talk:Serana

When was Serana sealed away?

Why does the article state that Serana was sealed away during the second era? Her dialogue options places her sealing during the first era with a vague possibility of it having taken place in the late merethic era and it was even confirmed in a Q&A by the ESO team that she was sealed away in the first era (when asked if she would make an appearance in ESO): "Probably not, unfortunately: as you may recall, Serana was imprisoned in a stone coffin in Dimhollow Cavern from sometime in the First Era until the time of Skyrim in the Fourth."

I understand that some(or just one?) writers have stated unoffically that Serana was sealed away in the second era and that Seranas dialogue options could just be the result of bad planning by the writers/developers. But an official statement from the game developers should at least count, right? Or is ESO not considered canon anymore?

Including a link to the Q&A here: https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/699 Sunesjul (talk) 02:33, 10 October 2019 (GMT)

I wasn't aware of the ESO Q&A stating it was the First Era, which is unfortunately inconsistent with the other source. Matt Grandstaff worked with Bethesda up until this year and I doubt he made mistakes in the very few lore answers he gave. Bethesda developed Dawnguard and therefore Serana, while Zenimax didn't, so I'd say a Bethesda staff member takes precedence over a ZOS staff member. In the ZOS writer's AMA the person commenting about Serana being asleep by ESO says they only know that info from what they recall, so it seems ZOS' writers knowledge is second-hand from what they've been told by Bethesda writers. The blog post source is also from the time period where ESO was still in beta (2013), and those posts were known to have information that was different later on, such as the playable Khajiit being called Suthay when we now know they're Cathay, so its totally in the realm of possibilities that they made a mistake saying it was the First Era.

I also don't know what dialogue states Serana is from the Merethic/First Era. Before I moved the info, the lore entry for Serana initially said she was put away in the First Era; however, it seemed to be speculation because it only backed by her being alive during the time of the Dwemer, but there's no indication that she was. She says "I always wondered what the dwarves actually looked like. I hear they're like elves, but with beards." which only tells us that if anything, she never personally met any Dwemer. If there is other dialogue supporting her being locked away in the First Era please do share it here. The Rim of the Sky (talk) 03:13, 10 October 2019 (GMT)

It seems my headcanon filled in extra information that wasn't actually there but I did manage to find some thins in Serana's and Durnehviir's dialogues that supports it.

Serana Dialogue:

Inside Bloodhollow Crypt:

Serana: "Empire? What... what empire?"

Player: "The... Empire. From Cyrodiil."

Serana: "Cyrodiil is the seat of an empire? I must have been gone longer than I thought. Definitely longer than we planned. Please, let's hurry. I need to get home so I can figure out what's happened."

-She is suprised that Cyrodil is the seat of an empire. While it's possible, if not very likely, for Serana to have not heard of the Alessian Empire with her and her family living in such a secluded location. It beggars all belief for Serana to have missed the founding of the Second Empire (also known as the Cyrodilic Empire and the Empire of Cyrodil) in 1E 2703, especially considering that Skyrim was part of that empire. It's also worth a mention that the Alessian empire and Skyrim was at war sometime around 1E 477-78 ending with the death of High King Kjoric the White. If Serana is politically inclined enough to ask who the High King is, she's probably also inclined to know about empires who's killed said High King at least once.

When inside a dwemer ruin:

Serana: "Is this a dwarven city? I can't believe they'd let it get so run down."

-The dwemer disappeared in 1E 700 and it was a pretty big thing, yet Serana is surprised about there not being any dwemer there to clean up the city.

"I always wondered what the dwarves actually looked like. I hear they're like elves, but with beards."

-This one might just be the use of the wrong tense by Serana's voice actress but she uses "they are" instead of "they were". If she knew about the disappearance of the dwemer she'd have used "they were".

Durnehviir Dialogue:

Durnehviir: "There was a time when I called Tamriel my home. But those days have long since passed. The dovah roamed the skies, vying for their small slices of territory that resulted in immense and ultimately fatal battles."

-From this we can assume that Durnehviir made his bargain with the Ideal Masters after the dragon war, otherwise it wouldn't be just "small slices of territory" they fought for. I think it's also safe to say that his deal was made before the akaviri dragonguard/the Blades hunted the dragons to extinction at the end of the first era (Book: The Rise and Fall of the Blades). Why would men, mer and beastfolk believe that dragons were extinct if they still "roamed the skies" and engaged in "immense and ultimately fatal battles" with each other? Dragons are neither discreet nor quiet.

Player: "Were you a part of all that?"

Durnehviir: "I was. But unlike some of my brethren, I sought solutions outside the norm in order to maintain my superiority. I began to explore what the dovah call "Alok-Dilon," the ancient forbidden art that you call necromancy."

-It's worth a mention that he says "maintain my superiority" instead of "assure my survival". This does not sound like someone whose race is facing extinction.

Player: "So you sought the Soul Cairn for answers."

Durnehviir: "The Ideal Masters assured me that my powers would be unmatched, that I could raise legions of the undead. In return, I was to serve them as a Keeper until the death of the one who calls herself Valerica."

-Durnehviir's bargain with the Ideal masters that trapped him in the Soul Cairn was to guard Valerica and I think it's safe to assume that this must have happened after, or atleast at the same time as, Valerica went to the Soul Cairn otherwise there wouldn't really be anyone for Durnehviir to guard. Since Valerica was the one who sealed Serana in Dimhollow Crypt we can also assume that Serana was sealed before Durnehviir made his bargain with the Ideal Masters. Since Durnehviir made his deal at the end of the first era at the latest, and Serana was sealed away before Durnehviir's made his bargain we can safely assume that Serana was sealed away before the first era ended.

Even if we where to disregard the dialogue from Serana and Durnehviir, we still have the Q&A as the only official statement regarding this. It seems to me that even if the intention of some of the writers was for Serana to have been sealed away in the second era, going by the game dialogue and the Q&A, this was not what was implemented in the actual game or canon. That "Bethesda staff member takes precedence over a ZOS staff member" is a perfectly fine opinion for headcanon, I myself have several things which I consider not-canon despite what Bethesda or Zenimax claims (mer lifespan being retconned to 200-300years and the entirety of ESO to name two). But fact is that Zenimax owns Bethesda Sofworks and through them they own the Elder Scrolls franchise which in turn makes Zenimax the ones who decides what is canon or not. Bethesda Softworks can only decide what is canon due to Zenimax letting them decide what is canon, The ESO developers have (unfortunately) just as much authority over the Elder Scrolls canon as Bethesda for the simple reason that Zenimax says so. Despite popular opinion on the matter: it's always the owner of a franchise that decides what is canon and what is not canon, even Bethesda Softworks opinion on canon is only valid up until Zenimax says otherwise. Because of this, since Zenimax says that ESO and its developers can set what's canon or not, the Q&A is basically Word-Of-God for canon.

I've never added to or edited a page on this site before, sorry The Rim of the Sky if I accidentally remove what you wrote or wreck the page or something.

Sunesjul (talk) 21:18, 10 October 2019 (GMT)

Decided to read both of the sources cited as support for "Serana was sealed inside Dimhollow Crypt with the other scroll, supposedly in the late Second Era between the Reman and Septim empires." - as stated in the article.

The first by Grandstaff from sep-13 says:

"The intention was that Serana went to sleep in the late second era, between the Reman and Septim empires. Her initial dialogue is just her surprise that there’s an Empire in Cyrodiil, as there hadn't been when she went to sleep."

-He says that the intention was for it to be 2E, not that it actually is, or was implemented, that way. It might just be me, but this statement is more open for interpetation than it needs to be and had he skipped the whole 'intention' part it could have been simple and clear. This reads as if he's being intentionally ambiguous.

The second source cited in the article is a q&a from sep-14(I think) were the only mention of Serana (that I could find) is this:

"stanislav2

Hi, will Serana be in ESO?

Michael Zenke

Serana is, IIRC, already in her sleep-tube by the time ESO kicks off."

-This one only says that Serana was sealed before 2E 582 (I think that's the year in which all ESO events take place) and nothing else. If anything I would argue that this is a counter-argument to the articles claim of Serana being sealed away late-SE due to 2E 582 being closer to mid-SE than late-SE.

To me it seems obvious. The only support there is for Serana having been sealed away late Second Era is Grandstaffs somewhat ambiguous statement while we have the game dialogue/events and a q&a saying First Era. Both q&a's was released after Grandstaffs statement.

At least change the article to something like:

'Serana was sealed inside Dimhollow Crypt with the other scroll, sometime between the early part of the First Era and the end of the Second Era.'

-This way we know the article is correct even if it's not very precise.

Sunesjul (talk) 10:25, 25 October 2019 (GMT)

Not much of the Skyrim dialogue directly states Serana was sealed in the First Era but the Durnehviir stuff makes a lot of sense. All the sources given by the developers contradict each other so its complicated. The source saying Serana being asleep by ESO could work with either, with Grandstaff's info she could have been put there between 2E 430 - 581 and with the other source it could be anywhere between 1E 0 - 2E 581. I can't say whether the inconsistency is due to miscommunication between bethesda and zenimax or simply a change in writing but until the games themselves say something to solve it I can't make one take precedence over the other. I will though be sure to use each source in the article for completeness.

The blog post source for the First Era wasn't documented here before because I didn't know it existed, but it is great you brought it to my attention so that the wiki is aware of it. And hey no need to apologize, your edits are fine and you didn't ruin anything, if anything I really appreciate you helping out. I'll make an edit to the page with your input and do respond to let me you know what you think of the difference :) Thanks The Rim of the Sky (talk) 20:18, 25 October 2019 (GMT)

Speaking somewhat against the Interregnum theory is the fact that she mentions that Valerica tended the Volkihar garden for centuries, plural, which is hard to fit into that time without her having knowledge of either the Akaviri Potentate or the Longhouse Emperors, both of which had influence close to Volkihar castle's doorstep. Although it's hard to say how reliable Serana is as a source, given that her dialogue doesn't seem particulary well edited for continuity even with itself. Apparently Valerica and Harkon stopped talking to each other the moment they became vampires, but still lived together for centuries? And Serana, despite after this having experienced several lifetimes of the three of them not being family, still hopes they can be a family again? Actually, what family, she says she was never close to her father.--77.23.253.98 14:16, 2 December 2022 (UTC)

I tried to put it all together, and the most sensible date for Serana's imprisonment is during the reign of High King Harald, as it the only time period that close to fits all parameters. These parameters are as follows: There is no Empire; There are dragons vying for supremacy; There is a High King; There are Dewmer in Skyrim. While the end of the Dragon War makes the most sense as the latest date for Durnehviir's attitude, the extinction of the last holdout of the dragon cult in Forelhost marks the second-best turning point for the dragons' power. Similarly, we can be sure that the Dwemer existed in Skyrim at the time (the later Clan Kragen notwithstanding), because Harald also drove out the Snow Elves, who because of that turned to the Dwemer for sanctuary. As a consequence, a few things have to be concluded: Firstly, as the Volkihar family stayed together a few centuries before the break-up, Harkon Volkihar must have been a mortal during the last centuries of the Merethic Era, making his family one of the first pure-blood vampires after Lamae Bal. Secondly, he has to have been a contemporary of Vyrthur, because the chantry in the Forgotten Vale was also constructed "near the beginning of the First Era". Thirdly, because the corruption of the Snow Elves into the Betrayed must have taken more than one generation, that means Vyrthur was a vampiric arch-curate for several centuries, with Gelebor not noticing anything (although given how little Gelebor noticed, that's not surprising). Fourthly, that means Vyrthur has to have been turned by a bloodline that can pass as mortal, so very likely Lady Belain's, or Harkon's, because those are the pure-blooded strains present in that area at that time. Fifthly, Serana missed both the turning of the Chimer into Dunmer, and the arrival of the Redguards, and should have been very confused to be rescued by one of them.--77.23.253.98 10:54, 3 December 2022 (UTC)