Lore talk:Places

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Two things[edit]

1. Direct references to games typically shouldn't be on lore pages, but I left them there for now in case someone thinks there's a legitimate reason for them.

2. Referring to all the regions in the intro as "provinces of the Empire" might be dated. We know that the Empire is dilapidated during Skyrim.Minor Edits 00:09, 1 September 2011 (UTC)

"Provinces of the Empire" is already anachronistic, depending on which empire you were talking about, and especially so in cases where there was no empire. I suppose "Regions of Tamriel" would be better, although even those have shifted somewhat over the eons. rpeh •TCE 08:41, 1 September 2011 (UTC)

Bodies of Water[edit]

It might be helpful to clarify here how bodies of water should be alphabetized on the multi-topic pages. For example, the Isle of Balfiera is actually on both Lore:Places B and Lore:Places I. I want to add a snippet for Lake Honrich, but I wasn't sure where it should go.

Since Lake Rumare appears on Lore:Places L instead of Lore:Places R and the Sea of Ghosts and the Sea of Pearls are both mentions in Lore:Places S, I'm assuming that we're not ignoring anything in a place name besides "The" for alphabetization here, am I right? Minor Edits 07:31, 22 January 2012 (UTC)

I'd never spotted that, and I think we've been making a mistake here. Listing rivers under "R" and seas under "S" is silly, and in cases where we've done that they should be moved to the other page. We can take a lead from Wikipedia here: their categories list rivers and seas under the letters of their names rather than lumping everything under "R" or "S" (eg this). I know categories are different to our pages but I still think it's the way to go. rpeh •TCE 07:43, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
Awesome; that makes more sense to me, as well. Minor Edits 07:46, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
I've moved the offending entries. The issue remains with the trail on the single-topic pages, though. Thought I had it figured out, but I was creating red links to non-existent categories. Minor Edits 08:25, 22 January 2012 (UTC)

Nirns moons[edit]

Should Masser and Secunda be under places? Are they considered places? — Unsigned comment by 69.14.13.111 (talk) at 23:03 on 10 May 2014

Yes, they are. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 23:06, 10 May 2014 (GMT)

lake canulus[edit]

I think lake canulus is screwed up? — Unsigned comment by 69.14.13.111 (talk) at 01:20 on 22 May 2014

Fixed. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 01:26, 22 May 2014 (GMT)

Valenwood villages - Comparison between 3E and 2E... HELP![edit]

Hi all! I need help to achieve some consensus about how to treat minor settlements in Valenwood.

OBVIOUS relationships:

3E Archen Cormount = 2E Cormount - Same settlement.

3E Karthdar Square = 2E Karthdar - Same settlement.

3E Longhaven = 2E Longhaven - Same settlement.

3E Marbruk Field = 2E Marbruk - Same settlement.

3E Vulkwasten Wood = 2E Vulkwasten - Same settlement.

3E Vullain Haven = 2E Dread Vullain - Same settlement.

PROBABLE relationships:

3E Black Park = Black Vine Ruins are in front of the Baandari Trading Post. - QUESTION: That Colovian-style settlement could be named Black Park during the 3E, being the Trading Post and Black Park equivalent?

3E Emperors Run = 2E Wilding Run - Same settlement, but renamed.

3E Longvale = 2E Valeguard - Same settlement but renamed.

3E Moonmont= 2E Moonmont - QUESTION: Moonmont is a settlement founded after the 6th century of the 2E around or over the Anequinan ruins? Or we should treat Moonmont simply as an Anequinan ruin?

3E Thormar Keep = 2E Thormar - QUESTION: Thormar is a settlement founded after the 6th century of the 2E around or over the Ayleid ruins? Or we should treat Thormar simply as an Ayleid ruin?

POSSIBLE relationships:

3E Cori Silmoor = no direct equivalent, but same location as 3E Velyn Harbor - QUESTION: Cori Silmoor and Velyn Harbor are the same settlement with different names or the two are unrelated? If the two are unrelated, Velyn Harbor should be considered uninhabited by the 3E? And, if the two are unrelated, Cori Silmoor should be considered a new settlement founded after the 6th century of the 2E or not?

3E Cormeir Spring = no direct equivalent, but same location as 3E Brackenleaf - QUESTION: Cormeir Spring and Brackenleaf are the same settlement with different names or the two are unrelated? If the two are unrelated, Brackenleaf should be considered uninhabited by the 3E? And, if the two are unrelated, Cormeir Spring should be considered a new settlement founded after the 6th century of the 2E or not?

3E Eagle Vale = no direct equivalent and no settlement nor ruins in its location by 2E - QUESTION Eagle Vale should be considered a new settlement founded after the 6th century of the 2E or not?

3E Ebon Ro = no direct equivalent, but same location as 3E Vinedusk Village - QUESTION: Ebon Ro and Vinedusk Village are the same settlement with different names or the two are unrelated? If the two are unrelated, Vinedusk Village should be considered uninhabited by the 3E? And, if the two are unrelated, Ebon Ro should be considered a new settlement founded after the 6th century of the 2E or not?

3E Glenpoint = no direct equivalent, but same location as 3E Tanglehaven - QUESTION: Glenpoint and Tanglehaven are the same settlement with different names or the two are unrelated? If the two are unrelated, Tanglehaven should be considered uninhabited by the 3E? And, if the two are unrelated, Glenpoint should be considered a new settlement founded after the 6th century of the 2E or not?

3E Green Hall = 2E Green Hall (subzone) - QUESTION: Green Hall is a settlement founded after the 6th century of the 2E in the so-called region? Or we should not treat Green Hall as a settlement at all?

3E Heimdar City = no direct equivalent and no settlement nor ruins in its location by 2E - QUESTION Heimdar City should be considered a new settlement founded after the 6th century of the 2E or not?

3E Lynpan March = no direct equivalent and no settlement nor ruins in its location by 2E - QUESTION Lypan March should be considered a new settlement founded after the 6th century of the 2E or not?

3E Meadow Run = no direct equivalent, but same location as 3E Bloodtoil Valley - QUESTION: Meadow Run and Bloodtoil Valley are the same settlement with different names or the two are unrelated? If the two are unrelated, Bloodtoil Valley should be considered uninhabited by the 3E? And, if the two are unrelated, Meadow Run should be considered a new settlement founded after the 6th century of the 2E or not?

3E Stone Fell = no direct equivalent, but same location as 3E Willowgrove - QUESTION: Stone Fell and Willowgrove are the same settlement with different names or the two are unrelated? If the two are unrelated, Willowgrove should be considered uninhabited by the 3E? And, if the two are unrelated, Stone Fell should be considered a new settlement founded after the 6th century of the 2E or not?

3E Stonesquare = no direct equivalent, but same location as 3E Reman's Bluff and Online rocky terrain - QUESTION: Stonesquare and Reman's Bluff are the same settlement/fortification with different names or the two are unrelated? If the two are unrelated, Reman's Bluff should be considered unoccupied by the 3E? And, if the two are unrelated, Stonesquare should be considered a new settlement founded after the 6th century of the 2E or not?

3E Tarlain Heights = 2E Tarlain Heights (subzone) - QUESTION: Tarlain Heights is a settlement founded after the 6th century of the 2E in the so-called region? Or we should not treat Tarlain Heights as a settlement at all?

3E Wasten Brukbrook = no direct equivalent and no settlement nor ruins in its location by 2E - QUESTION Wasten Brukbrook should be considered a new settlement founded after the 6th century of the 2E or not?

2E Greenhill = no direct equivalent in 3E map. Greenhill should be considered uninhabited by the 3E?

2E Fort Grimwatch = no direct equivalent in 3E map. Fort Grimwatch should be considered unoccupied by the 3E?

2E Bramblebreach = no direct equivalent in 3E map. Bramblebreach should be considered unoccupied by the 3E?

2E Diss = no direct equivalent in Online or Arena map. Seaside Sanctuary is located in the island in front of the supposed location of the settlement. Should Diss and Seaside Sanctuary be considered the same settlement with different names (probably Bosmer and Altmer versions)? Should we consider Diss and Seaside Sanctuary uninhabited by the 3E because there is no direct equivalent in Arena map?

HELP AND OPINIONS VERY APPRECIATED!!

Esh (talk) 20:10, 15 May 2017 (UTC)

If none of these things are provable, we can't state anything for certain. The same goes for many villages in High Rock, like Aldcroft which is kinda where Anticlere should be, and Crosswych which is where Kambria should be. --Enodoc (talk) 21:45, 15 May 2017 (UTC)
As I said on the forums: I would say it's worth assuming that anything with a similar name has a relationship with the ESO settlements, while anything in the same location and no obvious ties should be considered a new (post-2E582), separate settlement. —Legoless (talk) 22:23, 15 May 2017 (UTC)
I agree with Enodoc and Legoless. The location itself isn't worth much, especially given that it can vary between maps (look where Elden Root was on the Arena map and where it is in ESO). I'd suggest looking at some existing lore articles about certain settlements that appeared in Arena, Daggerfall, and ESO. Sometimes there are cases where a similar name can refer to a settlement and something else, like a ruin or a geographical feature (here: Thormar, Moonmont, Tarlain Heights or Green Hall). These are usually at least loosely related and described in a single article; see for example Lore:King's Guard (a region, a mountain range, and a town) or Lore:Stonefalls (a region and a town). --Vordur Steel-Hammer (TINV1K) 00:09, 16 May 2017 (UTC)
I think we have reached some degree of consensus. So I will write the plan to do, so other provinces will have "jurisprudence". The "obvious" relationship category settlements will be created (some already exist)- Cormount, Marbruk, Karthdar... The "probable" relationship category settlements will be created too- Black Park, Emperor's Run, Thormar, Moonmont and Valeguard. They have name similarities between Arena and Online versions. AND, regarding the "possible" relationship category settlements, I will create those appearing in ESO (Bramblebreach, Tanglehaven, Velyn Harbor...) adding a paragraph in which I say something like "after the Three Banners War this settlement was abandoned or destroyed, not appearing in 3E maps". I will create Green Hall and Tarlain Heights too, in the same way I will create Emperor's Run, adding that there were not settlement by 2E 6th century, but they were built after that time, probably during the early 3E. The settlements only appearing in Arena WILL NOT BE CREATED (there is nothing to tell). Tell me if you agree with this. Esh (talk) 08:38, 16 May 2017 (UTC)
I'm not sure if Bramblebreach, Tanglehaven, Velyn Harbor, Black Park, and Emperor's Run would be considered sufficiently historically significant for lore pages. But if they are, we can't really say they were abandoned or destroyed, or started off as something else, because there's no proof of that. Green Hall and Tarlain Heights should indeed have pages anyway though, since they are regions. --Enodoc (talk) 09:11, 16 May 2017 (UTC)
I have just checked the settlements which did not appear in Arena and...
BOSMER SETTLEMENTS
Bramblebreach: has religious importance (book mention), famous artisans, treethane ruler.
Velyn Harbor: has Dominion-related importance, Queen Ayrenn arrived here, previous attacks by Maormer, Redguards and Wood Orcs...
Tanglehaven: has military importance (book mention).
Black Park/Baandari Trading Post: has Colovian-style buildings and walls and probably is related to the nearby places of Greenhill and Fort Grimwatch, built during the Second Empire. Black Vine Ruins and Black Vine Villa are clearly related to the settlement, so its history began during the 1E Ayleid migration...
Emperor's Run: is a settlement which was clearly constructed in a previous unoccupied grove and named after the Emperor (previous name is Wilding Run). Worth mention that.
Bloodtoil Valley: is a mixed Bosmer-Orsimer settlement. Furthemore, the Bosmer from here were the last worshippers of Z'en.
Valeguard: is a Bosmer settlement constructed around a graht-oak and has some similarity to Longvale. It has religious Spinner-related importance.
Deepwoods: is the birth place of numerous Green Ladies and has a woman-shaped tree, which is believed to be the first Green Lady.
Fuller's Break: has no historical importance as far as I know. Not worth an article.
Seaside Sanctuary: has a book telling its history and importance regarding the First Dominion history (Maormer occupation and destruction of the town).
Fort Grimwatch: has Anequinan ruins beneath it and Second Empire origins, beside of having two graht-oak.
Greenhill: same origin as Fort Grimwatch and Fort Sphynxmoth. It was a Colovian colonization effort in northern Valenwood. It has Colovian-style Cathedral and vaults beneath it.
Willowgrove: has a treethane ruler and a Bosmer-Khajiit battle took place here. Willowgrove mead is famous across Valenwood.
Vinedusk Village: it is not one settlement. There have been several Vinedusk villages. I do not know how to treat this as far as I do not know how long the Vinedusk Rangers existed (maybe they only existed during Aeradan Camoran rule). Maybe not worth an article.
Brackenleaf: it has an original history and relationship with the forest around it. Brackenleaf Briars are based on the town.
Redfur Trading Post: a non-permanent settlement. It has a Khajiit-style temple, but it has no name. Not worth an article.
WOOD ORCS STRONGHOLDS (we have not mentioned them!):
Dra'bul Stronghold (Drublog Clan) in Malabal Tor.
Bloodtoil Stronghold (Drublog Clan) in Malabal Tor.
Jathsogur Stronghold (Drublog Clan) in Malabal Tor.
Gushnukbur Stronghold (Gushnukbur Clan) in Greenshade.
Goldfolly Stronghold (abandoned) in Grahtwood.
Barkbite Stronghold (Barkbite Clan) in Grahtwood.
Thizzrini Arena (abandoned) in Reaper's March. It was a Wood Orc stronghold before it was an arena.
What should we do with these strongholds? They are important for Wood Orcs lore. Maybe a Wood Orc lore page, or separate pages for each stronghold?
Many thanks and sorry for my broken English! Esh (talk) 10:09, 16 May 2017 (UTC)
Hey, first thanks for all the work on the articles! In addition to the comments above I would say that if information does not appear in the games or in-game books then don't add it. Eg the "destroyed after the 3 Banners War". Let's keep to the lore that can be found with evidence. Hunts-for-Wisdom (talk) 10:17, 16 May 2017 (UTC)
Along the same line of reasoning, I'm not sure about the paragraph starting "The town was probably founded during the late Merethic Era" which keeps turning up on many pages. There's no proof of this that I can find in any of the cited sources. Having a read through the Karthdar page, I can also not see any history specifically related to Karthdar, aside from one paragraph of ESO stuff, as it all seems to be generic Valenwood history, which belongs on the Valenwood page. --Enodoc (talk) 09:16, 17 May 2017 (UTC)
Regarding generic history paragraphs, I added them because I copied the style of Wipedia's cities. Just look at any European city like Cologne or Lyon. There are historical events which happened in the city and only in that city, but most of the history part is generic to the country or region. So, the question is: Wikipedia model for Lore settlements or just add city-related stuff? What do you think? Esh (talk) 10:09, 17 May 2017 (UTC)
I'd say stick only to regional events which would have impacted the settlement significantly. The various overlords of Valenwood throughout history isn't particularly relevant to Karthdar, especially when in truth we know nothing of the settlement during those time periods. However, stating that it was under the control of the First Aldmeri Dominion in 2E 582 is a known fact and at least partially relevant to the town's appearance in ESO. See, for example, Lore:Priory of the Nine - we don't go through the various incarnations of the Cyrodilic empire, but we do note the Dominion invasion since it's directly witnessed in ESO. —Legoless (talk) 18:22, 17 May 2017 (UTC)

() I am working on other sides while we discuss this. I will not write any other article until we achieve consensus. We have plenty of time ;). I think it is important to unify criteria. Regarding Valenwood, the powers were: Anarchy, Camoran Kingdom, Second Empire, 1st Aldmeri Dominion, 2nd Aldmeri Dominion, Third Empire, Camoran Usurper (briefly), Mede Empire, 3rd Aldmeri Dominion. Grown villages encountered in ESO were founded around the first step. Stone villages, however, were founded much later (Second Empire), generally speaking. At least do we agree on adding these references? I think in those Internet surfers who wanted to know about Marbruk and Vullain, for example... They visit us because he want to write some fan fiction or roleplay while playing Skyrim. I only tried to write in a way this hypothetical visitor could know easily how was Marbruk and Vullain at a certain date. Just that. Exists or not? Empire or Dominion? In ruins or thriving? Many thanks and regards guys. Esh (talk) 18:41, 17 May 2017 (UTC)

Island names[edit]

Five islands in the Yokuda and Eltheric rows have incorrect names. The only source for these is the map of western Tamriel, which is unfortunately blurry. However, the Redguard loading screens and box art clearly show correct spellings.

  • Vandor -> Pankor (Attrebus loading screen)
  • Asf Yder -> Asil Yelir (back cover, supported by Brennan loading screen)
  • Seuol Yeler -> Siuol Yelir (back cover)
  • Kamlesh -> Kardesh (inside cover that says "Sharpen your sword...")
  • Khibit -> Klithi (Dram loading screen)

In addition, there are several alternate spellings here.

  • Yath = Vathi (Brennan loading screen)
  • Ravan = Raven (back cover)
  • Cespar = Caspar (Brennan loading screen)

I've already fixed Pankor and added notes about Vathi and Caspar alternate spellings. I'll finish the rest soon, but I want to leave a note here about what has changed. These names have existed on the wiki for a long time. —Dillonn241 (talk) 04:31, 18 October 2017 (UTC)