Lore talk:Elder Scrolls
Why does this page refer to the Elder Scrolls as "Aedric" when one of it's own references, Lost Histories of Tamriel, calls that a inappropriate appellation, and Pension of the Ancestor moth claims the scrolls as being above the Aedra and Daedra themselves? I mean yes, there are people in tamriel that would mistakenly refer to the scrolls as Aedric, but there's no point in this article intentionally spreading a misnomer.126.96.36.199 09:53, 19 March 2012 (UTC)
- The text you cite as saying it is not Aedric directly says "In an earlier volume I discussed the vagaries and influences of the Aedric prophesies, more commonly known as the Elder Scrolls." Even that author says they are called Aedric, as named by Therin.
- As we don't have the chapters 23 through 27 that he references for his explanation of the wrong appellation, we can't know anything past the fact that a very few people share the thought that they are not Aedric, while the rest of Tamriel appears to think they are so. Neither is there an explanation as to why the Pension of the Ancestor Moth claims them as being above.
- We don't know how much in these books is fact, nor do we have much evidence showing it to be a misnomer. Removing the adjective "Aedric" might be a good idea due to such confusion, but I don't think it should be explicitly stated that the Scrolls are not Aedric. --Velyanthe 19:53, 19 March 2012 (UTC)
- I'm not saying it should be explicitly labelled as not Aedric (we don't know the origin of the scrolls), but the article as it stands declares them to be Aedric in nature. This is in spite of the fact that the only source that does mention this term disputes it's very accuracy, and the credentials of the very guy who came up with the term. Also, I would dispute the idea that the rest of Tamriel thinks they are Aedric. According to Lost Histories of Tamriel, "Elder Scrolls" is the more common term, and we know from skyrim that it (that is, the term "elder scrolls") is a term that dates back to the dragon war. Therin is obviously contemporary with the writer of Lost Histories, so his choice of terminology (calling them Aedric prophecies) can't have had universal penetration in the Tamrielic psyche at the time of writing. The lack of the phrase "Aedric Prophecies" in other works would also imply that the term saw very little penetration in Tamriel. The fact that the principal handlers of the scrolls believe them to be above Daedra and Aedra is simply another indicator that Lost Histories is basically correct in labeling "Aedric Prophecies" as an incorrect appellation.
- Also, we have a simple proof of what the Ancestor moth cult meant by the scrolls being above the gods, when you consider that Nocturnal's curse on the Grey Cowl could not prevent an Elder scroll from exposing Dareloth's identity as the original thief of the cowl.188.8.131.52 21:04, 19 March 2012 (UTC)
Trying to Reference
So some of the books that were provided are not actually used in the article ( Ruminations on the Elder Scrolls, Divining the Elder Scolls ) so should I A: delete them or B: incorporate them?--J'ZhirrthePriest 23:30, 1 April 2012 (UTC)
- If at all possible, I'd say to incorporate them. Otherwise, put them under the heading "See Also". --Velyanthe►Talk►Email 23:43, 1 April 2012 (UTC)
- Will do--J'ZhirrthePriest 23:47, 1 April 2012 (UTC)
Okay I cited all of them but I somehow did it wrong, help --J'ZhirrthePriest 00:12, 2 April 2012 (UTC)
- I fixed it for you. You messed up the book names on two (Tameriel instead of Tamriel, and of instead of on), and you used the Cite Book template on a third instead of the Cite book template--capital letters are important. You were correct in your use, it was just spelling/capitalization mistakes. --Velyanthe►Talk►Email 00:19, 2 April 2012 (UTC)
- Thank you :) sometimes I just need to step away and come back with a fresh look. Ill get the hang of it --J'ZhirrthePriest 21:07, 2 April 2012 (UTC)
- "The Elder Scrolls do more than simply record history and make prophecies about the future. In fact, for those who know how to use them, they are some of the most powerful artifacts in the Elder Scrolls universe. Some things, besides prophecies, that Elder Scrolls have been used for include... banishing Alduin to many years in the future, separating the Gray Cowl of Nocturnal from its Nocturnal curse in the year 3E 433 (essentially meaning that Elder Scrolls are more powerful than Daedric Princes), and time-traveling back to the moment when Alduin was banished so that the time-traveler could learn Dragonrend."
I've moved this paragraph off the article. While this information needs to be added at some point, the paragraph is poorly written when compared to the high standards in lorespace. In short, a lot more research needs to be done before attempting to expand the article beyond the basics. --Legoless 00:24, 17 May 2012 (UTC)
I was talking to Dexion Evicus between obtaining Valerica's Elder Scroll and setting out to find the one in Blackreach. I asked him about the scroll I still had to find, and he commented that he'd normally send me to the Imperial City to talk to someone at the library, but that such was no longer an option. My only option was to ask him why this was the case, to which he replied "The Elder Scrolls vanished from the Imperial City around 175 of this era and have been scattered across Tamriel by forces unknown." I don't recall if there was more to what he said about this event, but in any case I added this information to the article, at the end of the first paragraph; I also added it to the Fourth Era, Second Century timeline article. He did go on to suggest asking at the College of Winterhold, like everyone else suggests. Deadlykris (talk) 04:03, 19 September 2012 (GMT)
- If anyone is curious, the line is: "The Elder Scrolls vanished from the Imperial City around 175 of this era and have been scattered across Tamriel by forces unknown." • JAT 03:45, 22 September 2012 (GMT)
Allegory of the Cave Reference
It seems that the Elder Scrolls themselve are, to some extent, a reference to Plato's Allegory of the Cave, a metaphysical allegory about our world and its relation to the absolute truth. The working of the Elder Scrolls seems to refer to rhis allegory; First off, the Scrolls contain absolute knowledge about events past, happening and coming. The outside in Plato's myth is also the absolute truth (or an allegory for this). Furthermore, the book Effects of the Elder Scrolls states that the untrained eye will be struck blind once he casts a look on a Scroll, much like the helpless soul in Plato's story, who, after exiting the cave for the first time, will be blinded by the light of the sun (truth). Only the traint eye can look for longer at the Scrolls. Lastly, the Blind Moth priests, the only ones who can truly study the scrolls, turn blind after years of service. In Plato's myth, the highest knowledge, that of good and bad, is visualised as the sun, and one who looks into the sun for too long will go blind.
- Interesting, this seems worth some investigation, and/or perhaps inclusion on the easter eggs page. The reference is pretty clear, though, from what you've said. Xolroc (talk) 21:53, 11 October 2013 (GMT)
Is it possible the scrolls are actually blueprints of Mundus left behind as Magnus fled? It would be no surprise that they contain so much knowledge, being the very plans of the universe in which they reside. 184.108.40.206 05:58, 7 September 2013 (GMT)
- This is too speculative to merit inclusion on the page. Please note that this page is only for discussion of page alterations. Minor EditsThreats•Evidence 06:17, 7 September 2013 (GMT)
Should this page be in the Artifacts category, rather than general History? The focus is clearly on the items themselves and their effects, and the physical objects have now appeared and been usable in multiple games. -- Hargrimm(T) 18:23, 14 November 2013 (GMT)
Time Travel and Re-writing time
Should there be any mention of how the Elder Scrolls have the effects of re-writting time (Oblvion, Thieves Guild Questline) and time-travel (pre-Skyrim events, Nords sending Alduin into the future)? --Resonance Gamer (talk) 06:54, 28 January 2014 (GMT)
- Lay out your argument. What you want to say on the page and why, based on what evidence. This kind of thing easily transgresses into original research, which should be added pursuant to a consensus. Minor EditsThreats•Evidence 07:02, 28 January 2014 (GMT)
- Well, first off, in Skyrim, the player witnesses 3 past Nord heroes using an Elder Scroll to send Alduin to an unknown point of time (that being, supposedly, the very start of the game), which indicates that the Elder Scrolls (or at least that single one) can transport individuals forwards in time, though it's not stated how far into the future, of if it's a random time selected. Even the use of this Scroll caused a Time-Wound/Rift in the exact place where it was used, causing one (in this case, the player) to be able to see into the past of when the Scroll was used (though with the use of the same Scroll).
- Secondly, upon completing The Ultimate Heist in Oblivion, The Gray Fox uses the stolen Scroll to "re-write history", causing The Thieves Guild to prosper, Dareloth's house to no longer be abandoned, and the curse of the Gray Cowel to be lifted. Though this should of caused a paradox, in theory, because if history was re-written, the previous events concerning the Thieves Guild Questline may not have happened, causing time to not be re-written, etc etc.
- In any case, I think the some Scrolls, or at least these 2, have the properties to control time (such as, again, to re-write time to time-travel). This is all based on theory so that is why I am asking as to whther or not it is relevant to the page and whether it should be added or not. --Resonance Gamer (talk) 07:18, 28 January 2014 (GMT)
- Thank you. I've forgotten the details of the Oblivion quest you're referring to. I suggest drafting what you want to put on the page. The devil's in the details with this stuff, and we don't want to open the floodgates here. There's a lot of speculation to be had about the Scrolls. Does anyone else have thoughts on this? Minor EditsThreats•Evidence 07:29, 28 January 2014 (GMT)