Lore talk:Dark Brotherhood/Archive 1

This is an archive of past Lore talk:Dark Brotherhood discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page, except for maintenance such as updating links.

Mephala

I'm confused about the discrepencies betwene Maphala and Sithis. on this page it states that the brotherhood Worshiped Mephala and that the Night mother could be male or female. i'm so confused Tnu 19:53, 19 February 2008 (EST)

Here's how I understand it...

Originally, there was only the Morag Tong. This was an assassination cult dedicated to Mephala. As Mephala was usually identified as female, the leader of the Morag Tong became known as the Night Mother, regardless of whether they were male or female. Eventually, some members of the Morag Tong came to believe that the organisation should be set up more like a business than a cult, with an emphasis on making money. This didn't go down well with Mephala's devotees, so these members split off and formed a splinter group called the Dark Brotherhood. This group followed Sithis, the void, rather than Mephala.

Now the term Night Mother came to identify the leader of the Dark Brotherhood, rather than the leader of the Morag Tong. Meanwhile, the activities of the Morag Tong came to be restricted to Morrowind, where their activities enjoy a certain degree of legal protection. The Dark Brotherhood exists throughout Tamriel, but their activities do not receive any legal protection (although they have been employed by various political leaders, such engagements are not officially sanctioned). As the Morag Tong are still set up as a cult dedicated to Mephala, they hate the more business-oriented Dark Brotherhood (and the feeling appears to be mutual).

Oblivion has clouded the issue by identifying the Night Mother as an ancient 'spirit' effectively worshiped by the members of the Brotherhood, rather than their current leader. During the Morag Tong quest line in Morrowind, you assassinated the current Night Mother (Severa Magia), suggesting that this was simply the title of the leader of the Brotherhood. Of course, it is possible that the Night Mother in Oblivion is Severa Magia.

--Gaebrial 03:25, 20 February 2008 (EST)

The only problem with that is that Severa Magia is Imperial while the Night Mother in Oblivion is clearly Dunmer Tnu 23:51, 21 February 2008 (EST)

business vs. cult

Yes, the DB has its own cult, but compared to the Morag Tong, the business aspect is more important. Sithis is of dubious identity the DB's interpretation of "him" is unique and well, a little strange. It is an organization with two motives, so that sentence should stay. Note that the DB members are not all religious fanatics or devout cultists, and several are in it for the money or the heavily-stressed sense of family identity. In a world where gods and divine will is real, the DB's Sithis is mostly made up by its members, as all mentions outside of the assassin's guild paint a radically difference picture. Killing for a philosophical concept is like declaring war on hunger, or poverty. It is an actual endeavor, but symbolic and not the that should be stressed, at least not to the exclusion of others.24.31.156.165 14:35, 11 November 2008 (EST)

'Yes, the DB has its own cult, but compared to the Morag Tong, the business aspect is more important.' Compared to the Morag Tong. No I don't think so, as the Morag Tong no longer worships Mephela as it is viewed as the anticipation of vivec. The continued existence of the Tong as a legal entity is based on not worshiping mephela, at least not openly. The fact that the Tong is also a legal institution makes it far more business like than the DB which is more varied in the motivation of it's members; the difference between Daggerfall DB(where Sithis is not mentioned, and assassination is referred to as accounting) and Oblivion DB(where you wish they would shut up about Sithis) helps prove this. 86.156.136.112 15:30, 11 November 2008 (EST)

Maybe, I don't know much about the Tong. But if the DB is that varied, then it is very clear that the article should stay as it is.Temple-Zero 16:01, 11 November 2008 (EST)

Mephala vs. Sithis vs. Night Mother

Just to add my two septims, the carry-on of legends thru the ages has probably been embellished for a variety of reasons including writer bias (either personal or cultural), misperception, translation errors, etc., which leaves present day scholars in Tamriel (and us, of course) with conflicting accounts. The fact that we're dealing with secret organizations only furthers the mysteries.

One take is that both Sithis and the Night Mother are reflections of Mephala's believed tendency to appear as either male or female. The biggest argument against this is that Sithis is portrayed as the ancient void and, thus, pre-dating the daedric princes. However, according to the Lore section for Sithis: "He is referred to by some texts and legends as a child of Mephala, while some say he is Mephala (just in different form and appearance)."

The DB belief as portrayed in Oblivion is that the Night Mother is the consort, or bride, of Sithis, but what exactly does this mean? It could simply mean that Sithis and the Night Mother are united. In otherwords, they should be considered as one being, and not two seperate beings.

As to why the Dark Brotherhood emerged or split from the Morag Tong, the questions generally revolve around whether it simply occured due to mortals having different secular ambitions, or whether Mephala herself was involved -- either directly or indirectly. Perhaps she resented being all but abandoned by the Morag Tong because they caved to political pressure, and/or she wanted to ensure that she'd have a continuing presence in all of Tamriel, not just Morrowind.

Personally, I don't understand the generally held postion that the DB is more business orientated and secular than the Morag Tong. The Morag Tong replaced worship of Mepala with Vivec for political expendiency; that to me suggests they are at least, if not more so, as secular-minded as the DB -- the DB haven't shown any inclination to defy their patron deity, or deities, in a thousand years.

I'm not trying to assert that my speculations are accurate, but I am suggesting that the legitimate differences in opinion are valid and the issue is far from resolved, and that this should be explicitly reflected in the article. --Lilbacchant 12:23, 30 May 2009 (EDT)

Given that both Mephala and Vivec are literal deities known the world over, whereas not even the Dark Brotherhood agrees what Sithis is (and the world at large ignores their interpretation), I think it is fair to call the Tong religious and the DB more secular. It has a cult, but many members (in Oblivion) seem devoted to the organization, rather than the vague Dread Father, and little mention is given to Sithis' central importance prior to that.Temple-Zero 13:24, 2 June 2009 (EDT)

ok, two years late but I would just like to add that one of them mentions that sithis "dwells not in the planes of oblivion" and isn't a prince of destruction. "Sithis is something, different..." — Unsigned comment by 166.254.150.65 (talk) at 03:04 on April 17, 2011

I'd say Mephala is the original night-mother, the go-between of Sithis and Mundus/Nirn, and the tendency to call living leaders 'Night Mother' is a more modern and money-minded development of the Morag Tong. Mephala may well still be the Nightmother, and the corpse which communicates to the 'listener' of the Dark Brotherhood is just a helpful prop. Mephala is after all an inherent deceiver, having not even revealed to the mortal world her sphere or 'theme'. Sithis is neither Daedra nor Aedra, but a precursor to both, one of the forging forces of the Universe and counterpart to Anuiel. First came Anu, the force of Order or 'Statis', which the Altmer worship above all else. The Altmer say that then came Anuiel, the 'soul of all things', which then created Sithis, the force of change and chaos. However... The book 'Sithis' as found in Skyrim suggests Sithis came first within Anu, which it describes as "..nothing, but the foolish altmer have names for and revere this nothing. That is because they are lazy slaves. Indeed, from the Sermons, 'Stasis asks merely for itself, which is nothing." It then goes on to say that Sithis 'sundered' Anu, creating a great sea of formless ideas, ideas that fade and die in time. One of these 'ideas' came to know itself and did not want to fade, this idea being Anuiel, the soul of all things, or 'the demon' as described in the book. This idea rallied other self-aware ideas, and these were the Aedra, in other words the Eight Divines. Thus began time, and the eight divines made for themselves plane[t]s, or 'realms of everlasting imperfection.' as described in the book. It then states Sithis begat Lorkhan, 'Unstable Mutant!' as the book describes him, to pose as an Aedra, and fool the other Aedra into creating the Mundus. This is pretty interesting, at it suggests Sithis is responsible for Nirn itself as well as its two moons, which are all just Lorkhan's sundered body/divinity. It also implies Nirn is a sort of trap for the Aedra, intended as that which causes them to fade or die. That all said, its pretty clear to me that though the Dark Brotherhood is a business, its also one of the more 'straight to the source' religious groups in the Elder Scrolls universe, though few know/acknowledge it.--Grieves 23:29, 23 December 2011 (UTC)

- Sithis doesn't have to be an entity. He could simply be nothing more than a concept; the very notion of death and nothingness. The Dark Brotherhood members mostly take joy in their work and revere death. If Sithis is just another word for death and nothingness then their work and creed go hand in hand. As nothingness itself, he preceded Anuiel and the Aedra and he could also be the "child" of Mephala since death is her business and sport. As for the Night Mother, I believe that was a title of the head of the Dark Brotherhood. One of those Night Mothers claimed to hear the voice of death incarnated; Sithis. She begat five children of him and killed them as a means of "sending" them to their father. The village then killed the Night Mother for what she has done and then she started contacting listeners. Out of reverence of the Night Mother, that title was no longer given to the heads of the brotherhood and instead, the black hand was formed. It could also be possible that Mephala is the one who spoke to the Night Mother. Mephala likes nothing more than meddling in mortal affairs and it's quite possible she's behind both the Morag Tong and the Dark Brotherhood, for her sphere encompasses deceit and strife, no reason why she wouldn't have her own followers at war. She took on her male form and assumed the name of Sithis then mated with the Night Mother and had the Mother do her dirty work controlling the Brotherhood while She still controlled the Morag Tong secretly. And it just so happened that some delusional scholar tried to pair death and the void together and formed the misconception that Sithis is older than Anuiel. These are the plausible possibilities I could think of. — Unsigned comment by 82.145.208.86 (talk) at 17:38 on December 29, 2011

The best in-game book to read to understand who/what Sithis/Padomay is has got to be The Monomyth. As quoted from it, "..In most cultures, Anuiel is honored for his part of the interplay that creates the world, but Sithis is held in highest esteem because he's the one that causes the reaction. Sithis is thus the Original Creator, an entity who intrinsically causes change without design. Even the hist acknowledge this being.

Anuiel is also perceived of as Order, opposed to the Sithis-Chaos. Perhaps it is easier for mortals to envision change than perfect stasis, for often Anuiel is relegated to the mythic background of Sithis' fancies. In Yokudan folk-tales, which are among the most vivid in the world, Satak is only referred to a handful of times, as "the Hum"; he is a force so prevalent as to be not really there at all." Sithis may not be a he/she, or even an it, but it is at least a force of profound creation/change and not just 'the name of nothing/death'. Its responsible for creation, begat the 'mutant' God that made Nirn. The Dark Brotherhood may be confused about who/what it serves, but Sithis' role in the grand scheme is clearly a big one. --Grieves 15:31, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

The members of the Black Hand

Would it not be inaccurate to consider the four Silencers who serve the Speakers also as members of the Black Hand? Consider that a fallen Speaker is more likely to be replaced by their own Silencer than some boot Executioner fresh out of a Sanctuary.Dark Spark 02:20, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

As Lucien Lachance says, "The Black Hand is the ruling body of the Dark Brotherhood. It is made up of one Listener and Four Speakers. Four fingers and a thumb, if you will." In addition, Arquen tells you "But now, we can begin anew! I bestow upon you the title of Speaker. You will take Lucien Lachance's place on the Black Hand!" - so even though you were a silencer, you weren't considered part of the BH. So... no. The silencers aren't part of the Black Hand. rpeh •T•C•E• 10:23, 19 June 2010 (UTC)

From what I understand, the Listener "Listens", gets the contracts, and recruits. He spreads it to the speakers, and the speakers give out the contracts. I've always thought of the four (and only 4)silencers to be the speaker's top and personal killing machines. To me, a silencer is made to do the killing, and in my opinion would be selected by the speaker. If they do go into the speaker position next, they would pick their own silencer. Other than Cyrodil, I think the other provinces probably have their own branches of the Dark Brotherhood, or a cult similar to it. The Black Hand only exists in Cyrodil, where as the others would just be regular members put in charge of a safe haven in other provinces. Whether there are large sanctuaries, I don't know. There are safe havens (likely), none the less. I think there are only four silencers, though I am not completely sure. Grayfox1128 22:20, 19 June 2010 (UTC)

There are five silencers, actually. One for each "finger" or "digit" of the Black Hand. — Unsigned comment by 87.110.44.73 (talk) at 07:10 on 20 June 2010

For Sithis' sake

According to its own citation ( Fire_and_Darkness ) this statement deserves little to no merit so I am removing it. But if anyone disagrees here is the original... " Mephala, whom the Tong worshiped as their patron goddess, was seen by the Dunmer as Anticipation of Vivec[1]. This theory concludes that in exchange for tolerance of their continued existence, the Tong ceased their worship of Mephala in exchange for the worship of Vivec. The Dark Brotherhood could not forgive their brethren in Morrowind for this betrayal, resulting in the war between the two organizations that has lasted until this day... This theory is contradicted by the shrine to Mephala found in the Morag Tong Headquarters in Vivec." If anyone has any justification to the last part please share it, I couldn't find any --J'ZhirrthePriest 19:41, 26 March 2012 (UTC)

For the love of the Webspinner, did you play Morrowind? (Jokes)

There is a shine to Mephala (the webspinner) in the Morag Tong headquarters in Vivec (or at the time of Skyrim, it was in Vivec). Right-Hand-Of-Sithis 07:03, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

The Vile Lair

The paragraph mentioning the Crimson Scars says that the location of the sanctuary is "unknown." Should we not include the full story of the expansion ? — Unsigned comment by J'ZhirrthePriest (talk • contribs) at 03:47 on 26 March 2012

It says the fate of him and his sanctuary are unknown, not that the location is unknown, an expansion of that paragraph would not do any harm as I see it. The Silencer 03:57, 26 March 2012 (UTC)

Alright, should it be a short descriptive few sentences covering the general location and what was inside ( i.e shrine to Sithis )? Or something more in depth? --J'ZhirrthePriest 19:41, 26 March 2012 (UTC)

If the linked page for the crimson scars is all the info on it and it can't be expanded, move it here. Otherwise a short descriptive.

There are some confirmed things from both sides of the dark brotherhood in skyrim.

• Babette survives
• Nazim and/or Cicero survives (at least one)
• The falkreath sanctuary is destroyed
• The dawnstar sanctuary is still used, cicero stays there before arriving at falkreath
• The commander at dragon bridge is the leader of the forces that destroy the sanctuary
• The night mothers coffin was in Skyrim
• Grelod dies. phrase it like the low point of the brotherhoods rumored contracts came when they killed an orphanages owner
• The brotherhood was betrayed by one of its own [cant remember correct details, astrid contacts the commander, player is be asked to join then turns]

I think these details can be reincorperated because they definatly happen. The Silencer 19:59, 26 March 2012 (UTC)

I will do my best. Im currently adding citations to Cicero's Journals so this is the perfect time --J'ZhirrthePriest 20:03, 26 March 2012 (UTC)

Sorry to rain on your parade, but there was some info there not canonized. The Silencer 22:36, 26 March 2012 (UTC)

Im sorry I dont know that that means. What did I leave out? --J'ZhirrthePriest 05:32, 27 March 2012 (UTC)

Interfering while you're still working on it. It was bits put in that aren't cannon yet, like astrid and nazir gathering contracts. The Silencer 05:42, 27 March 2012 (UTC)

There was a logical inference in the first paragraph but whatever. I like the way it is now. --J'ZhirrthePriest 05:45, 27 March 2012 (UTC)

Nazir does not survive if the Dovahkiin decides to destroy the Dark Brotherhood.--DagmarH 19:51, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

Prev: None

Up: Lore talk:Dark Brotherhood

Next: None