Morrowind talk:Daedra

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Singular - plural[edit]

Whoa, whoa, whoa...what's the singular form of Daedra here? Looking at the first paragraph on the page, I'm lead to believe it's Daedroth, but...not true, is it? Somercy 12:57, 9 February 2007 (EST)

I believe that Daedroth would be correct. Yes, we all know it is screwy... Obviously the Developers didn't do very well in English class.--Ratwar 13:00, 9 February 2007 (EST)
Well, then we should correct the singular Daedra elsewhere when we see it, no? I'd be willing to get to work on that any time, if wanted. Sounds almost like a Greek plural. Somercy 13:02, 9 February 2007 (EST)
From a grammatical standpoint, we should correct it, but the usage is so rare that it would probably cause confusion, especially since there is already a Daedroth. In fact, it may very well be one of those things where the lore has changed over time. I say don't change it.--Ratwar 13:06, 9 February 2007 (EST)
Actually, the conclusion I came to is that Daedra can be singular or plural, and Daedroths can be used, too. I summarized what seems to be accepted in Oblivion at Oblivion:Daedra#Overview. When talking about all the various beings from Oblivion, Daedra is used both for the singular and plural. When talking about the one particular type of beast, it's generally Daedroth for one of them and Daedroths for two. That conclusion is based upon what is used in the various books and dialogues that are seen during Oblivion. --Nephele 13:45, 9 February 2007 (EST)
I was about to say the same thing, citing "Taunt the Daedra" for my prime example. Somercy 12:14, 12 February 2007 (EST)

() Several of the examples I came across are in the book Varieties of Daedra. That book clearly uses Daedra in the plural (e.g., "From the Daedra themselves"), in the singular (e.g., "Divath Fyr sought a Daedra"), uses the singular Daedroth, and the plural Daedroths. Given that all are used in the same book, it's hard to dismiss as just inconsistencies between different authors. There are multiple other examples in books of "a Daedra" and other singular uses; there are also a few other (primarily CS-specific) uses of Daedroths. All of which leads to me believe that this is the accepted usage. --Nephele 12:34, 12 February 2007 (EST)

Well, then, can someone smarter than I fix it on the article, because I'm having trouble finding it, and that opening line, "A Daedroth is a divine creature," is killing me! Somercy 12:36, 12 February 2007 (EST)
Now that I've put the new chart up here, I'm thinking the transclusion of the Tamriel article is no longer appropriate on this page. It seems to mostly be talking about Daedra Lords, which is NOT the purpose of this page. This is about the Daedra you will encounter in the game. Any information about Daedra Lords should be included on Morrowind:Daedric Quests, maybe, or just leave it in the Tamriel namespace, because there's nothing in there that's really Morrowind-specific. Any opinions? --TheRealLurlock Talk 23:13, 2 March 2007 (EST)
I agree, there's nothing really Morrowind-specific in that page, so leave it where it is. Maybe put a link in this page to the Tamriel page and another on Morrowind:Daedric Quests. --DrPhoton 13:44, 3 March 2007 (EST)

Shortswords[edit]

I have noticed that specifically placed scamps, such as the one in that mage's house in maar gan, and the dead one in the entrance of Ibar-Dad, seem to carry iron shortswords. Were they orginally designed to use weapons? --Bonabopn 62.254.136.118 20:56, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

I always assumed they were impaled with the shortsword and died. It seems unlikely they were originally designed to wield weapons, but you never know. Legoless 21:10, 14 April 2011 (UTC)
The one in Huleen's Hut is alive and carries one. --Bonabopn 62.254.136.118 23:13, 14 April 2011 (UTC)
That's the only live one, and is known to have been "causing trouble". All the others are dead : see here. Who can tell whether they were going to use the swords or not? rpeh •TCE 08:21, 15 April 2011 (UTC)

Possible Bug[edit]

I knocked scamp down and decided to practice long blade skill on it. Although scamp is normally immune to normal weapons, it started to take damage and got killed by unenchanted iron broadsword. Tested several times with the same result.
198.168.48.130 21:51, 7 November 2011 (UTC)

Exhausted NPCs laying on the ground take damage when you hit them this is a fact, I have never tested this with creatures though, but when this is the case as well, then it must be considered a bug when it comes to creatures who are immune to normal weapons. Maybe someone can test and verify this.--PLRDLF (talk) 10:48, 8 January 2014 (GMT)

Can the Scamp use magic ?[edit]

As I've mentioned here some time ago the unique Scamp Lustidrike can not cast spells, as I've tested by myself. The "cast" animation plays but nothing happens, to be more precisely. So I assumed Scamps can't use magic in general, which was also mentioned on Lustidrike's page. However I recently encounter a Scamp introduced by Piratelord's "Creatures" Mod. These Scamps resemble very much the Scamps from Oblivion and are able to cast fireball spells. Piratelord's Scamps use the base Scamp model, so I'm starting to wonder whether Scamps really can't use magic at all, or is it only the unique Lustidrike (and maybe Creeper). Perhaps someone who has time and interest can look into this topic. I was just wondering whether I was wrong with my assumption or not.--PLRDLF (talk) 10:48, 8 January 2014 (GMT)

Separate articles for Dremora and Golden Saint?[edit]

I was wondering if it wouldn't be too far-fetched if we were to make a Morrowind article for the Dremora and/or Golden Saint species? I mean, seeing as they're both recognized as sentient races among the lesser Daedra, and were even registered as NPCs in later games, even if their races were non-playable without mods. I mean, sure they're registered under "Creatures" in this game. But then, so were the Chimer and Dwemer, even though it's been established in Lore that they're both sentient races with distinct cultures.

And even races that are neither registered as "Special creatures" like the Chimer and Dwemer nor as a unique race of NPCs have appeared in other games, but are portrayed by another existing race, like what was done with the Tsaesci and Ayleids (portrayed respectively by Imperials and Altmer) in Oblivion, or are recognized in-game as ordinary creatures, like the Falmer in Skyrim (although NPCs of the un-altered Snow Elves appeared in expansions for that game).

But I'm not saying this would also extend to the Mudcrabs and Scamps, even though you can talk to certain individuals, because they're not sentient as a whole, they have no real culture (unlike the clan system of the Dremora or the caste system of the Golden Saints), and they've never been treated as NPCs in any of the games nor established as being sentient in Lore. Plus, there's the fact that you can actually conserve with a few Dremora characters in Morrowind, despite them being "Creatures". Bauglir100 (talk) 19:48, 14 December 2014 (GMT)

What? I would disagree with this sentiment entirely. I'm not necessarily opposed to making individual pages for each type of enemy, but it would by wholly inconsistent to split Dremora and Golden Saints off by themselves. In Morrowind they are creatures, and there's no getting around that fact. —Legoless (talk) 19:55, 14 December 2014 (GMT)
I agree with Legoless. Game namespaces should describe what we can see in a particular game, and the Dremora in Morrowind are just a type of enemy, they don't even have ranks. It makes no sense to split them off. --Vordur Steel-Hammer (TINV1K) 20:05, 14 December 2014 (GMT)
Yeah, the Dremora and Golden Saints in Morrowind are registered as "Creatures". But like I said, so are the Chimer and Dwemer. Sure, their cultures weren't as developed in Morrowind as they are in later games, but the Orcs started out the same way. But then again, the Orcs for Arena and Daggerfall are treated as Creatures on this site, so I guess that's a fair enough reason. Still, I can't help but think that the Dremora and Golden Saint races should be added to Morrowind's "Races" template under "Other". Even if they're neither playable nor NPCs, it would still acknowledge their sentience, even if it isn't properly expanded upon until the later games. Bauglir100 (talk) 22:54, 14 December 2014 (GMT)
I fail so see what the relevance of Chimer and Dwemer is. These two races are no type of monsters in the game, though arguably Vivec and Almalexia can be said to be Chimer, and Yagrum Bagarn is technically Dwemer, there is no type of monster called Chimer and Dwemer. There are monsters called Dremora and Golden Saints, and non of them are NPCs. —MortenOSlash (talk) 05:36, 15 December 2014 (GMT)
This is a big no for me. Orcs are classified in the gamespaces where they are creatures as such even though they are playable in later games, and the same thing should be done here for Dremora and Golden Saint. What do we care what they are in lore? This has everything to do with how they are treated in the game and in morrowind they are treated as creatures. Your pointing out Chimer and Dwemer makes zero sense to me. They don't appear in Morrowind at all. I'm extremely confused as to why they have been mentioned in this conversation at all. Changing how Dremora and Golden Saints are classified would only serve to make the wiki less accurate, which is the big killer here. Jeancey (talk) 06:16, 15 December 2014 (GMT)
Like I said, the fact that the Orcs are registered as creatures in Arena and Daggerfall even though they're a playable race in later games is a fair enough reason to not worry about giving the Dremora and Golden Saints their own Morrowind articles...yet. But I'd still like to add them both (or at least, the Dremora) to the "Races" template under "Other" alongside the Chimer and Dwemer, since they're sentient beings and appear in the game, but aren't playable. And if you're wondering what the relevance of the Chimer and Dwemer is to my comparison, it's that Almalexia, Vivec, and Yagarm Bagarn, who are members of those species, are all treated as "Special Creatures" in-game, as opposed to NPCs of a race that's tagged "Non-Playable" like the way Dremora, Golden Saints, Dark Seducers, etc. are treated in later games. I mean, the Ayleids are listed under "Other" races for the Oblivion:Races template, even though they're neither NPCs of a non-playable race, nor Special Creatures, but portrayed by an already-existing in-game race (i.e. Altmer). Bauglir100 (talk) 17:20, 15 December 2014 (GMT)

() Talking about what is done in other namespaces isn't really useful here. What benefit would this give? Why is this needed? I can't see a reason why things that are treated as creatures should be given their own page. Almalexia, Vivec and Yagrum are unique, and thus have their own page, much like unique Dremora do. They are not the same situation as giving the generic Dremora and Golden Saint their own pages for no extra info than we get from this page. There just doesn't seem to be any good reason to do it, and several good reasons why it shouldn't be done. Jeancey (talk) 20:09, 15 December 2014 (GMT)

How many times do I have to tell you? I'm fine right now that they don't have their own separate pages. So please stop using the same argument again and again for something I've already agreed with. My question right is whether or not I can add them to the "Races" template under "Other" with the Chimer and Dwemer. Bauglir100 (talk) 21:30, 15 December 2014 (GMT)
I would still say no. There's nothing very special about them. Lore-wise, atronachs are sentient as well, and supposedly very intelligent. It doesn't make any of them a race in Morrowind. —Legoless (talk) 22:09, 15 December 2014 (GMT)
I still fail to see the need to list some selected types of beings of the planes of Oblivion along with the races of Morrowind. Additionally the Dremora and Golden Saints only are monsters there, not NPCs. My opinion is that it would not do anything other than confuse users of the Morrowind namespace. —MortenOSlash (talk) 22:16, 15 December 2014 (GMT)
Then why are Chimer and Dwemer listed in the Template? They're treated as "monsters"/"Creatures" in this game, too, not "NPCs". And it's been established that Dremora, Golden Saints, and the like are more sentient and intelligent than the majority of those other types of beings of the planes of Oblivion (aside from the Daedric Princes, obviously).
And Atronachs may be intelligent/sentient, but that doesn't mean they're anywhere near the level of the Golden Saints (or Dark Seducers, for that matter), let alone the Dremora. They might be able to speak and/or think for themselves, but that doesn't mean they're capable of producing a civilization of their own, or at least not on the same level as the three Daedric races I mentioned. Same goes to the Xivilai, which is why I'm not lobbying for them to be added to Oblivion's "Races" template, or for a Lore article to be made about them. Comparing the Xivilai to the other three races would be like comparing the Goblins to the Orcs, or for a more realistic analogy, Prehistoric hunter-gatherers to a medieval/feudal society. And I'm sure the Atronachs aren't anymore complex than the Xivilai are. More intelligent and sentient? Possibly. More civilized? Also possible. Of a status close enough for them to be on par with the Dremora/Golden Saints/Dark Seducers? Most likely not.
But no matter, I see that this discussion is going to be more trouble than it's worth, and I'm not going to lose sleep over it. I just wanted to prove a couple of points. So if nobody else is interested in making the suggested additions, then I guess I'll hold off on it, too. Bauglir100 (talk) 02:18, 16 December 2014 (GMT)
I will still try to explain why I was not convinced. The Chimer and Dwemer are races of Morrowind, though they are not present with the exception of three unique characters, and we find non of them as monsters in the game. Dremora and Golden Saints are not races in Morrowind, neither present or referred to as races either, but they are present as monsters and treated by the game as such. —MortenOSlash (talk) 05:48, 16 December 2014 (GMT)
Easy peasy fix. I removed them from the template. You are correct. They shouldn't be there. The links simply redirected to lore anyway and help no information that is specific or helpful to the namespace. Problem Solved, as there is no longer any conflicting policy or arguments. I didn't know they were in the template. Only pages in the namespace should be there (actually they might have had silly transcluded pages at one point, but I got rid of them over a year ago.) Jeancey (talk) 08:49, 16 December 2014 (GMT)