General:Symbolic Collage Thread

Book Information
Archived Link:	Symbolic college (forum thread)  [sic]
Writer(s):	Michael Kirkbride
Publication Date:	August 2007

Symbolic Collage Thread

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The following are transcripted excerpts of a thread discussing the Symbolic Collage, mentioned in Sermons 23 and 28, in which Michael Kirkbride posted. In it, Kirkbride discusses elements of Vivec's mythology, real-world inspirations for them, and how they tie into Vivec's character arc. Quotations from other users are included for context.

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Flying Freddy (Aug 15 2007)

What is the Symbolic college? Does this mean that Vivec slew the Ruddy Man through interpretive dance?

MK (Aug 15 2007)

'Collage', not 'college'.

Flying Freddy (Aug 15 2007)

Collage? That makes it even more confusing. And I'm very confused by those sermons already.

MK (Aug 15 2007)

If it helps, think of Jung's idea of Active Imagination. Also, though it wasn't my (or Vivec's) intention to be guilty by association, the concept of 'symbolic collage' exists in the present day.

Flying Freddy (Aug 15 2007)

Present day in the game, or present day in real life?

MK (Aug 15 2007)

Apologies; real life.

Flying Freddy (Aug 15 2007)

This is all fascinating (as well as confusing, but I imagine that's the point of it). I've played Morrowind for 3 1/2-ish years, and I have just gotten around to reading the sermons.

MK (Aug 15 2007)

I dug something out of my notes for the Sermons that may help:

"blah blah blah i shall be a warrior so that my son may be a farmer so that his son may be a poet blah blah founding fathers had the best quotes thomas jefferson worshipped the devil blah blah the new house is beautiful i'm glad to say getting tired at work slaughtering my story divorcing myself from it leaving it for symbolic escapades into the pedestrian least i have robot mary-in-space voiceover program that allows me to hear as i fly through the lower height 'i am having trouble opening the star-bar for reinforcements commander i would like to take this time to apologize for the inconvenience' s'funny when you hear it i know how to [NUMINIT] but what the hell is the collage thinking whose taste run along admirable lines until this is all mum's the word of course but i but i but i but i know where beauty sleeps that's another great quote written in lipstick on the chest of the britpunk loser wearing the bra of the girlfriend that left him for me"

...

...maybe.

-MK

Albides (Aug 16 2007)

Active Imagination refers to the process by which feelings are turned into symbols, stories or characters. If he killed him by way of symbolic collage, it was through turning emotion into a weapon. Or, the Ruddy Man himself was an emotion, killed through stream-of-consciousness therapy writing, an example of which MK showed you on the previous page.

MK (Aug 16 2007)

Especially as Active Imagination is bringing one's inner Horus back to life, yes.

Think of the monsters. They are the Friend, the Company, the Car, the City, the Country, the Thing You Ate Last Night, the Game, and (the saddest of the lot) the Child...all of which betrayed you and, in turn, have to be slain so that you can be born again.

See the Buddha, Kill the Buddha. Only different.

Ironed Maidens (Aug 16 2007)

So...would that make Vhek the bad guy?

I was so sure that it had to do with some sort of morale decline.

Albides (Aug 16 2007)

No! It makes him the liberated guy.

Ironed Maidens (Aug 16 2007)

Ohhh, well that seems rather...injusticed.

If you ask me. Maybe I don't grasp the concept as well as I should. I can see why he'd HAVE to kill them, though.

MK (Aug 16 2007)

"There is once more the case of the symbolic and barren. The true prince that is cursed and demonized will be adored at last with full hearts. According to the Codes of Mephala there can be no official art, only fixation points of complexity that will erase from the awe of the people given enough time. This is a secret that hides another. An impersonal survival is not the way of the ruling king. Embrace the art of the people and marry it and by that I mean secretly have it murdered."

Ironed Maidens (Aug 16 2007)

So it was kind of a necessity?

Albides (Aug 16 2007)

The way of the hermit is to retreat from the world, but "An impersonal survival is not the way of the ruling king". The way of the slave is to continue working in the same job you hate, with the friend you barely tolerate, the car you use more out of habit than necessity, and then you come home to play the game that wastes your time. Vivec rises above his troubles. He does that no by being a slave to life, but taking control of it.

Ironed Maidens (Aug 16 2007)

And the Ruddy Man was like...the concept of bondage?

(EX: He made those who wore him killers and nothing more?)

So by out-phasing (casting?) himself to a life of uselessness, or slave, he rose above it, thus the need to kill his children, not by killing just for killing, but rising above them?

Like I mean...uh...how to say this...

Give me a moment here, folks...

proweler (Aug 16 2007)

It's murder in the way that new pop-culture replaces the old pop-culture.

edit:

Common theme really. Ourobourous, symbol of creativity, a form that is always new, ect.

MK (Aug 16 2007)

SYNODEITIES: Thor (Norse), Hercules (Greek), Jesus (Christian), Kal-El (Pop Culture), Neo (Post Modern Pop Culture)

Ironed Maidens (Aug 16 2007)

But you don't see everyone "doing the Vhek", so to say.

MK (Aug 16 2007)

You sure? The forums show me something different.

Ironed Maidens (Aug 16 2007)

It's like writing a bible without using the words God, or, divine.

Why can't I just get out what I'm trying to say...

MK (Aug 16 2007)

The secret of language is this: it is immobile.

Mortazo (Aug 16 2007)

I fail to see how Jesus fits into that group. Thoguh modern Protestants may make him out like that, Jesus doesn't fit the classic "hero" archetype. He was a lover, not a fighter. I'd like to say Vehk is like Jesus, but he isn't. The only person Vehk loves is himself.

And btw, Thor and Hercules were developed independently, one was not based off the other. They were both based off the "hero" mold developed by proto-humans. Other isolated cultures also developed similar hero myths seemingly independent from eachother.

MK (Aug 16 2007)

I...I can't begin to point out where you are wrong, since it seems to happen in every single sentence you've written.

MK (Aug 16 2007)

Stick with Horus and every one of them falls into place: bridge between life and death, divine and material, and super turbo mega meme.

Greco-Roman Winefoot and Christian Savior meet by way of the Nephilic Tarot of the Fool. See also: mystery cults devoted to celebration-as-precursor-to-revolution. See also: Eucharist, or "bread as life and wine as life-worth-living". See also: "Vegetation God". See also: "Talk to me when you own a liquor store."

Superman is more real than anyone speaking here, and the "El", "Cradle as Phase to Change", "adoptive parents", et al will give Hebrew rope to anyone that stares more than ten seconds. Under "CaPtC", also file Hercules. See also: "Ma and Pa Kent as Alcemene and Amphitryon." See also: "Talk to me when you own a liquor store."

'Morrowind': obvious novel of the Prime Deliverer. See also: "Talk to me when you own a liquor store."

Symbolic Collage used to kill ill-informed draperies, indeed.

Big Head (Aug 22 2007)

It's gone from Vivec chopping people in half with his dick to archaic feuds, what is the matter with this society?

MK (Aug 22 2007)

Language.