User talk:Timenn/Archive 2009

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This is an archive, please don't post messages here. Post them on my talk page instead.

Removed Gripes[edit]

Technically speaking, a list of gripes IS a wish list. :P

I was just trying to help out, but fine, whatever, delete them. — Unsigned comment by (talk) on 2 January 2009


You think I care that you undid all my edits? My problems been solved, I could care less. Have a nice day!....BANG BANG! Prince of MadnessDaedryon 06:38, 7 January 2009 (EST)

Welcome back![edit]

Hey! Welcome back after some time of absence, I hope it wasn't anything serious. It's good to see you again. See you 'round. --SerCenKing 12:46, 16 March 2009 (EDT)

Thanks! There was nothing serious, just been busy with other stuff. I'm back on IRC as well, in case you visit there. --Timenn < talk > 14:51, 16 March 2009 (EDT)


Hi, I was just wondering what is the template for the Wiki Syntax Userbox you have. I case it's one you made, I'll just the image name and I think can do the rest myself. Cheers. --SerCenKing 12:33, 18 March 2009 (EDT)

No worries, I managed to pull it off. XD --SerCenKing 12:57, 18 March 2009 (EDT)

Your recent Change for Kristen Bartering option[edit]

Hey I understood the note above, about the bartering option not being available after the fight. But it is confirmed, with multiple cds and in my game multiple profiles that if you talk to her once you've started THE QUEST Mephala's Daedric Shrine quest you will not be able to barter her. It's true you'll never be able to barter her after the FIGHT, but the thing is it should be noted that you also cannot barter with her during the quest at ALL times. Please try confirm because I am serious- it's true. I've just checked for the fifth time with other people that has this game and reloaded another profile to check- she never has the barter options as long as you start the quest. Please confirm, thank you. — Unsigned comment by KrantiGlove (talkcontribs) on 19 April 2009

The problem is that I can't find anything in the Construction Set that reflects that. Note that it doesn't mean I don't believe you are serious. Can you give details on how you are no longer able to Barter? Does the option no longer appear? --Timenn < talk > 14:45, 28 April 2009 (EDT)

Age Template[edit]

Have you considered making your Age template a "real" template on the site? Ed Poor did on Wikipedia, and it's now extremely widely used. His is more concise than yours, but also more cryptic, and at a glance, it doesn't appear to do as many checks as yours does, though I'm not overly familiar with templates, so who knows. --Robin Hood (TalkE-mailContribs) 23:34, 8 June 2009 (EDT)

Poor's code on Wikipedia makes the necessary checks too. He used a "least code" approach, while my code uses a "more clarity" approach.
It might help to have some sort of User Age template, for all users who are just too busy to modify their own user page every year. :) --Timenn < talk > 12:35, 9 June 2009 (EDT)
Yeah, I thought that might be the case (about the least-code vs. clarity), but like I said, wasn't 100% sure, since I'm only barely beginning to look at templates. Speaking of which, would you mind having a peek at my proposed update to the IRC template and see if there's any problems? It's a super-simple change, but as it's only my second Template ever, I'd like to have someone look at it before I go and plop it into place. User:RobinHood70/Sandbox2 has samples if you wanna have a look, and feel free to play with it if you really feel a need to test anything specific.
If you do put it into Template space, can I suggest {{Age}} to keep it in line with the one used on Wikipedia?
Oh and as for "too busy", well, I'm sure lots of people are too busy having birthday parties on their birthday to actually change their user page. Besides, I haven't just used it for age, I've used it to calculate a number of other things on my page as well. It makes it convenient that I don't have to remember to change each of those dates all the time. --Robin Hood (TalkE-mailContribs) 21:17, 9 June 2009 (EDT)
Just FYI, I've now moved your Age template to Template space as {{Age}} and formatted the docs in our standard format. —Robin Hood (TalkE-mailContribs) 08:06, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
It's a good thing you didn't wait for me being slow. I'd forgotten all about this, sorry. --Timenn-<talk> 21:27, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
Hehehe, yeah, I kinda figured. I've been sort of dabbling with templates a tiny bit lately anyway, and I figured cutting & pasting an already-working template didn't really present much of a challenge. :) —Robin Hood (TalkE-mailContribs) 03:13, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Skills Page[edit]

I noticed that you edited the skills page. Since you did the one for Morrowind:Skills, would you mind doing it for Oblivion:Skills as well? Oh, and I was half tempted to Undo it because I personally think the smaller table should be close to the skills table, as in, right next to it. --Mr. Oblivion(T-C) 10:12, 11 June 2009 (EDT)

Tables within tables is generally not such a good idea, that's the reason I tweaked it. I've modified both pages now, and the Specializatin box is now left aligned (instead of right aligned). --Timenn < talk > 10:25, 11 June 2009 (EDT)
Hmmm, I didn't do the format for the Oblivion:Skills page so I just kept it consistent with Morrowind as well. Thanks for doing it though! --Mr. Oblivion(T-C) 10:31, 11 June 2009 (EDT)

Journal Entries Template[edit]

I put the finishing touches on the Journal Entries template; however, I was unable to fix the margins for connecting multiple entries. I tried your example, but it didn't work. Do you mind messing with it? Some pages have a lot of these boxes (such as Morrowind:Telvanni_Hortator), so it is best to narrow the margins. Thanks Timenn! --Mr. Oblivion(T-C) 07:49, 13 June 2009 (EDT)

You did the margins correct, but the problem was that there were some extra linebreaks. The wiki software adresses two linebreaks in a series as a new paragraph. A new paragraph automatically creates a gap between it and the previous paragraph. I've tweaked both pages so you can see what I mean. Good job, btw, on those Journal Entries! --Timenn < talk > 08:04, 13 June 2009 (EDT)
Thanks for both! I understand what I was doing wrong now. I'm just glad to see the template finally complete! Again, thanks! --Mr. Oblivion(T-C) 08:06, 13 June 2009 (EDT)


Hey, I've seen the quality maps you've been adding for the Random Oblivion Worlds and wanted to ask you to teach me how to make OB maps. I think map-making will be a great new technique and I can see how the SI section could do with A LOT more place maps! Cheers. --SerCenKing Talk 16:55, 16 June 2009 (EDT)

Sure, feel free to ask. Are you referring to the various Shivering Isles places that lack some maps (Gardens of Flesh and Bone spring to mind)? I would direct you to Nephele first, as she can help you with the overlays (if she has them for those maps). She can export them straight from the Oblivion.esm file, so you only have to add them to the background maps. That saves alot of time. The reason I'm not doing it for the Oblivion World maps is simply because there are no overlays available, and these maps need some extra attention as well, due to various oddities.
Background maps must be created manually though. We elected to use the ingame maps, as they are quite clear, and are what players normally see. To make them, simply start the game and screenshot the map window. I do have some tips that make that job considerably easier:
  • Use the console command tdetect to prevent enemies from attacking you, useful when exploring the place.
  • Use the console command tfow to disable the fog of war. You still have to manually discover all door markers though.
  • After grabbing a map image, close the map window, open it and grab the image again (and a third time). You have to try out for yourself how this works, but in my experience the screenshots have a significant chance of failure (e.g. no map window, just the background)
  • Use a interface mod (I use Darnified UI) that can increase the map window size. This saves you from most of the glueing together map pieces.
I hope these tips can help you on the way. --Timenn < talk > 17:14, 16 June 2009 (EDT)
Some more tips from having done a couple myself:
  • Make sure there are no markers on your map.
    • Use caqs to make sure there are no quest markers.
    • Remove your blue map marker by the usual method.
  • Make sure the direction arrow is off your map.
    • When stitching together large maps, move the map so that your direction arrow is entirely off-screen (be careful you capture everything you need to, though).
    • On small maps, take at least two with your direction arrow near the door (or wherever) and one where you've moved a bit so that you can C&P that section and obliterate the initial arrow.
--Robin Hood (TalkE-mailContribs) 19:48, 16 June 2009 (EDT)
Thanks guys! Yes Timenn, I am referring to those Shivering Isles places, but also to Polle Gold Mine for example. I'll contact Neph about the overlays then. Are they all the red and green dots, letters and so forth that are on the maps? --SerCenKing Talk 14:36, 17 June 2009 (EDT)
Ah, I forgot one: tcl, this console command can help you get rid of the arrow pointing towards your current location. Use the command to disable clipping (wall and floors), so you can walk quite a distance until the arrow is no longer on the map itself. --Timenn < talk > 17:22, 19 June 2009 (EDT)
By skimming through more SI pages, I've noticed that most of them lack Exterior maps. So... how big should they? Also, Rpeh mentioned he added the details manually instead of using overlays, would that be easier on exterior maps? Thanks. --SerCenKing Talk 20:28, 24 June 2009 (UTC)


Hey, Timenn. Just wanted to tell you, that I've finished the Wumeek page - and that my skills at bug description were just as bad as expected. Hope you can find the time to give it a proper rewrite (like we talked about on the IRC). Thanks in advance and see you around! Krusty 21:19, 21 June 2009 (EDT)

I tweaked the note a bit. Basically I removed the technical details, as they may be interesting for a few readers, it's not really material for the article itself. --Timenn < talk > 13:56, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
Fine with me - it sounds good and makes sense. Thanks! Krusty 14:17, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

Oblivion Realm Pages[edit]

You have been given a wine selection!

Your dedication and diligence to the wiki has not gone unnoticed. A user has seen the progress you've made, and has given you some wine because of it. Good work! The user reminded you to drink responsibly and also had the following to say:

Not sure if wine is your thing, but you deserve a reward for the utterly brilliant work you've been doing on the Oblivion pages. At some point I'll come up with a beer userbox. Maybe when you've finished :) –rpehTCE 20:33, 4 July 2009 (UTC)
Thanks! Yes, wine is perfectly fine if the occassion is right. I should start my own wine cellar. ;) --Timenn-<talk> 10:11, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

Pinch Back![edit]

My turn to pinch something from your CSS - looks like a good idea! –rpehTCE 09:41, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

You're welcome. It makes picking out the changes to hard-to-read characters (like the dot, or space) easier. I've made one last tweak by adding some padding, which makes the diff text somewhat easier to read. --Timenn-<talk> 11:02, 21 July 2009 (UTC)


It's official! Congratulations, I think... Now get out there and abuse your power!  ;) --GKTalk2me 03:29, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

Congratulations indeed. If you need any help with your shiny new buttons, let me know! –rpehTCE 05:37, 8 August 2009 (UTC)
Thank you both! Perhaps you can now slowly instruct me in the workings of the native battle language? ;) --Timenn-<talk> 12:20, 8 August 2009 (UTC)


I was wondering if you had any plans on getting new images for the city guards page? I mean, you seem to be currently adding images right now. If not, then I will start on the deletion review. But if you are, then I will withhold writing it. Thanks. –Elliot talk 19:50, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

I wasn't planning it, but seeing how I already formatted the lot, I might as well do it. Just not right now. --Timenn-<talk> 20:31, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

Redguard factions[edit]

Do each of the three Redguard factions need their own page or could the information about them perhaps be added to the lore dictionary? The three factions are the Lore:Crowns, Lore:Forebears and lore:Lothunics Apophis2412 14:00, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

If the content remains as little as it is now, I'd say just make a redirect to the entry in Lore:Dictionary and place the contents there. --Timenn-<talk> 14:05, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

Henantier's Dreamworld[edit]

Hi fellow Dutchman! Why did you remove Henantier's Dreamworld as one of the locations of Falling Blades? I know it is surreal and the fact you can get there only once are reasons to remove it, but it's still a location where Falling Blades can be found. I think it's better to re-add it, since there are no guidelines for listing locations, or are there? Besides, the Abyss entry also has Henantier's Dreamworld as a location, so I suppose that needs to be removed as well if it is decided not to list them. Wolok gro-Barok->T->C->E 16:18, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

I think I never set myself a good guideline when writing that article. Basically I added only individual locations if the trap was rare enough. Falling Blades are pretty common, so adding a single extra instance seems a bit distracting. The Abyss is quite rare, so I listed all locations for them. I know it isn't a very good guideline, but when writing the article I realised that some traps are too numerous to list all locations off, and others are so rare that if you simply list Ayleid Ruins, for example, it still could take a player dozens of dungeons to actually find an instance of the trap.
Not a strong answer I admit, so if you have a strong feeling the Dreamworld should be listed, go ahead and add it again. --Timenn-<talk> 08:50, 21 August 2009 (UTC)
You may be right, but a lot of common traps actually contain these distractions, as you call it. For example, Cave Ins are traps which are commonly found in caves and forts, but this article also lists Crumbling Mine and Ceyatatar as locations. The same goes for Rotten Planks, which are almost exclusively found in caves, but also Flooded Mine and Fort Strand are listed. So, for the sake of consistency, I think I'll re-add it. It is correct after all. Wolok gro-Barok->T->C->E 11:58, 21 August 2009 (UTC)


Gold Star.png
You have been given a gold star!

Congratulations on your appointment to Admin! I had always wondered why you weren't one and my only regret is to have missed the nomination. Have fun! XD --SerCenKing Talk 14:00, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

Thanks SerCenKing! And with 3400 pages yet to delete, there is enough work to do. :) --Timenn-<talk> 14:17, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

Hey, need some help learning the ropes[edit]

hey do you think you could help me around a bit ill tell you a little bit about myself:these are my Oblivion Characters:


Amkaos was a brutal Dremora Churl at first but the serene beauty of the other Dremora,Medrike made him go soft. Infact, Amkaos was kicked out of the Dremora ranks stripped of anything he ever had, and then they shot him into Tamriel abandoning him in a world where people make hunting out of them but then local Legion guards took him to the dungeons to study him further where he made quite a bit of an enemy out of his cellmate Valen Dreth. but the Emperor came and showed pity on Amkaos and gave the Dremora the sacred Amulet of kings. Now Lord Mehrunes Dagon and his Dremora want him back in the ranks as a Valkynaz for getting the amulet of kings but which way will he choose he is constantly wanted by Mehrunes Dagon but he will not do the right thing.Which way will he go?


up to doing a quest for boethia — Unsigned comment by Amkaos (talkcontribs) on 7 September 2009

Sure, just ask what you want to know. If you need tips regarding editing check the links given to you in your welcome message. If you need ideas for what work can be done around here, check the Task List. Have fun editing! --Timenn-<talk> 09:26, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

Totally different congrats![edit]

Congrats on the new house. Now for the joys of moving! ;) —Robin Hood (TalkE-mailContribs) 16:31, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

Good luck with your move. I've had a house move as well recently, so I know all about the joys! Talk Wolok gro-Barok Contributions 20:05, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
Thanks! I was quite fortunate actually, being 7th on the list (you know the Dutch system). And I'll make sure my helping hands do enough of the work. :) --Timenn-<talk> 07:58, 11 September 2009 (UTC)


You have been given a plateful of cookies!

A nice job with your new admin buttonz! Keep it up! :) –Elliot talk 03:05, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

Thanks Elliot! --Timenn-<talk> 08:16, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

Hey i need some help Timmenn[edit]

Hey umm is there a page where the people you kill dont diss appear(after you kill them theyre bodies dont diss appear — Unsigned comment by Amkaos (talkcontribs) at 08:43 on 13 September 2009 (UTC)

Im not Timenn, but the category-page for permanent corpses can be found here. --Krusty 08:57, 13 September 2009 (UTC)
I noticed the category wasn't linked from any main article, possibly making it hard to find. I've added a link to Oblivion:Containers for better accessibility. --Timenn-<talk> 08:24, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

Similar Game History to Yours[edit]

Hi Timenn!

I have a similar history with Oblivion that you had with Morrowind. Check out my user page. --Jxavier Talk - Contribs 18:57, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

I see. Though Oblivion at least had a nice tutorial, which allowed you to be drawn into the game before you were thrown into the open. An open game is good, but a player needs some clue as to what is important and what is not. Good think you hooked on the Oblivion as I did to Morrowind. --Timenn-<talk> 09:23, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Bravil Recommendation[edit]

I'd like to discuss with you an edit that you reverted about the Captivate spell. I'd like to know how it "conflicts" with anything? I'm right; I'm 100% right. It's the only charm spell that you can get without spending any gold, making it an ideal candidate if all you care about is getting the spell effect. Why did you revert it?Dstebbins 14:07, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

I had a look at it, just as a "second opinion", and think I see what the problem was: both sentences talked about "cost" or similar such wording, and it was easy to miss that one was talking about Magicka cost, while the other was talking about cost in gold. I've re-instated the change, but drastically re-worded both sentences to tighten them up and hopefully clarify the different context to each of them. If I'm wrong in thinking that that was the "conflict", hopefully Timenn will clarify. —Robin Hood (TalkE-mailContribs) 20:01, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
The revert was for more reasons than one, they just don't all fit in the edit summary. What I meant with conflicting opinions is that first it is stated that the spell is not a good reward, while the added sentence says it is. I opted to remove the part about the spell being free of purchasing costs, as it can be easily be deduced from the fact the spell is a quest reward. But I can see mentioning the spell is the only reward with that particular spell is of some use. My intent was to only leave the warning about the magicka cost, as that reminder was a bit useful. Your edit was incorporated in the article as the contradiction to the earlier statement the reward was not useful, so I removed that statement; allowing readers do decide for themselves. --Timenn-<talk> 08:35, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

Fast Traveling NPCs[edit]

Hey Timenn - I saw that you are investigating fast traveling NPCs. I found another one, and I figured it could be useful to have an NPC to compare with: Ariela Doran. --Krusty 09:11, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

Uh, can you refresh my poor memory? It may be some time ago, and I think I've forgotten about this. --Timenn-<talk> 09:21, 9 October 2009 (UTC)
It is on your to-do list... :) --Krusty 09:23, 9 October 2009 (UTC)
D'oh! I fear I may not able to address that list until I've cleared my backlog of patrolling (now 4 days behind). But thanks for the comparison NPC, I'll add it there as well. --Timenn-<talk> 09:31, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

Beating the rap[edit]

Hey Timenn - I see you moved my edit on the Mephala quest page about the easiest way to dodge the murder rap by lowering the two leaders disposition to the discussion page. This doesn't bother me in the least, but don't you think this should appear in some form on the main page? It is by far the easiest and simplest way to complete the quest without getting a murder rap on your character. I'll leave it to you to add whatever you think appropriate if you agree. 15:41, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

The reason I moved it to the talk page was because the edit felt like a personal experience, rather than an entry the guide. It was written in first person and it commented upon other methods, something typical of a talk page comment. I'm sorry if I misjudged your edit, though I must confess that the edit needs rewording before being placed in the article. --Timenn-<talk> 08:11, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

The Helm of Tohan[edit]

Here is my reasoning. It can sometimes be difficult to get a bounty removed, especially a high one. The purpose of the UESP is to provide help and advice to the player, for example to avoid the situation of travelling to do this quest and finding you can't do it, so going to get the bounty removed, then travelling back again, a bit annoying I think you'll agree. I just think it's helpful advice, especially as you would be prevented from even starting the quest. I added the note on 14th June, and you must have agreed with it being there as you then made a small amendment the same day. That lasted for months until user removed it recently. I think he's wrong, and I (and you!) were right at the start. Vlad the Imperial 10:07, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

The edit summary was not too clear, I admit. It's merely that I saw you reverted a user's edit without explaining why. The user who reverted your edit at least argued that the note was common sense. At that time I agreed enough with it not to act upon it, which may have lead to this confusing situation.
Currently I find your argument stronger, so I'd support you adding it again. --Timenn-<talk> 14:12, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
Thanks, I've put it back (forgot to log in first though). Vlad the Imperial 10:14, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

Is possible to get a bounty in werewolf form?[edit]

In Bloodmoon. — Unsigned comment by (talk) on 26 October 2009

That's actually a tricky question I can't give a definitive answer to. I strongly suspect that you can still get a bounty while you are in werewolf form. Looking at the game scripts that deal with the werewolves I can see no evidence that a werewolf shouldn't get a bounty, but I can't see everything with the Construction Set. Part of it is handled invisibly by the game. Your best bet would be to simply try it out. Let us know what the result it, so it can be added to the werewolf article. --Timenn-<talk> 14:15, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

Now is the time...[edit]

Choco chip cookie.png
You have been given a cookie!

Your dedication and diligence to the wiki has not gone unnoticed. A user has seen the progress you've made, and has given you a cookie because of it. Good work! The user had the following to say:

...for a well-deserved cookie! For incredible patrolling, for the help with various problematic NPCs and, last but not least, the fantastic work you are doing with the Oblivion Worlds. Cheers! -- Krusty 17:31, 13 November 2009 (UTC)
Thank you Krusty! --Timenn-<talk> 08:57, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

New pages for obvious spells but unique uses?[edit]

I think there should be a page for spells that like the one you removed yesterday that I had added that although they have obvious effect have unique uses that people would like to share. Lord Eydvar 04:05, 14 November 2009 (UTC)

I don't think a seperate is necessary. If you have comments on a specific spell effect, you can place them on the individual effect article. --Timenn-<talk> 08:57, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
thanks I didn't think of that! All I knew was that I had added a custom spell thats was pretty obvious but that i had come up with some really unique uses for that was taken down. I'll do that if i remember to next time i'm planning to comment on anything. Lord Eydvar 17:15, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

Elder Scrolls etymology[edit]

I posted etymology about two weeks ago at Community Portal like: Ajira अजिर (ajira) -agile, quick, rapid (Sanskrit) Talos θαλος (thalos) -scion, child ταλως (talos) -sun (Cretan) 'ηλιος (helios) -sun Suurootan सूर्य (sUrya) -sun (Sanskrit) tan and still got no comment maybe I posted in wrong section or perhaps people are not interested? — Unsigned comment by (talk) on 27 November 2009

I think you posted it in the right section. It's something that would affect articles across various namespaces, and the Community Portal is a good place for such questions/discussions. My guess is why people haven't yet replied to it is not because they are not interested. I think various editors may be confused what you intended to do with the information. It seems like you posted it mostly to provide some information. May I suggest you be a bit more bold and add such known etymologies to the various articles? That would certainly draw more attention to it. --Timenn-<talk> 13:24, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

Crown of Nenalata[edit]

Hi, I am the one who posted the latest information regarding the Crown of Nenalata.

"It is possible to obtain a permanent enchantment on higher levels of this helmet with the quest item glitch. When you retrieve the helmet from Umbacano's corpse, you can equip it after repairing it. Yet, the helmet doesn't loose its quest item status if you stay in the ruins. At this point, with the helmet equipped, you can obtain the permanent enchantment by having it forcibly removed like any other quest item. One way you can do this is by creating a command human spell and commanding a guard to follow you until you reach the room where you fight Umbacano. Once you kill Umbacano, repair the leveled helmet and equip it, then attack the guard and have him send you to jail and you will have the permanent enchantment."

I have tested it and it works. I have the PS3 version of Oblivion by the way. So why do you delete it? 07:38, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

I did not doubt that the glitch exploit wouldn't work, instead I already knew of it because of this paragraph. The reason I removed it is because the information was already covered, but in a broader scope. The glitch works with all quest items, and providing the method of the exploit on every Quest Item article makes it redundant. --Timenn-<talk> 13:24, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

Duke The Dog[edit]

It was fixed by Arthmoor's UOP 3.2.3a Hotfix for UOP 3.2.0 by Quarn and Kivan. Although it is not mentioned in the description. 12:47, 17 December 2009 (UTC)

Alright, I've added the dog back in. I added a note as well concerning the UOP, so players know the dog is not found without the patch. --Timenn-<talk> 14:00, 17 December 2009 (UTC)


Please clarify the revert summary "Items are not categorized as MISC; they fit better at Alchemy." The miscellaneous list is where people end up when they type in, e.g. 'Alembic', so it makes sense to me to include character levels required for grades of alchemical apparatus there, along with the chart that is already there with grade, ID no. weights, cost, and strength. Anarchangel 21:01, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

Oops, I didn't look closely enough at that edit. I thought it was you who added the the Apparatus items to that article (instead of the vendor information, as you did). I still feel they fit better at the Alchemy article, but that means more has to be changed than that single edit.
For now I've reverted my revert, as it makes sense that both tables are together on one article. --Timenn-<talk> 13:51, 29 December 2009 (UTC)