User talk:Timenn/Archive 2007

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This is an archive, please don't post messages here. Post them on my talk page instead.

Spell charts moved[edit]

Just letting you know, I moved the spell-charts you created on Shivering:Magic to the respective pages of the spell-merchants who sell them. This is the way all spell charts are listed for Oblivion (and I'm working on doing the same with Morrowind), so I think we should try and keep a consistant formatting. If there are enough spells, we might create Spells as an equivalent to Spells, but that uses a different formatting, and is divided by spell school and difficulty rather than by who sells them. Just didn't want you to wonder why all your hard work dissapeared - it didn't, I just moved it to the appropriate places. --TheRealLurlock Talk 12:53, 16 April 2007 (EDT)

I didn't think of adding the lists to the NPCs' pages because I used vanilla Oblivion's Spells page as example. I agree they are better off listed on their seller's page. The Shivering Isles doesn't offer enough new spells (not considering the NPC-only spells) for a seperate Spell page. --Timenn 13:56, 17 April 2007 (EDT)

Nice Screenshots[edit]

Thanks for all the work you've been doing adding screenshots! And thanks in particular for making the effort to get good quality images, e.g., well-lit and no menus. At the rate you're going the Pages Needing Images category is going to empty in no time :) --NepheleTalk 12:08, 19 April 2007 (EDT)

NP, it's actually kind of fun to browse through 400+ savegames to find the right setting for hunting down a certain NPC. Adding them by console helps alot. And a free afternoon once in a while helps too. :-) --Timenn 16:40, 19 April 2007 (EDT)


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Thanks for taking the time to take screenshots for all the NPCs and update their pages. -Deathbane27

Thanks! I feel it is the least I can do to contribute to this great wiki. It also makes me realize how many 1500+ NPC's really is. :-)
--Timenn 18:14, 27 April 2007 (EDT)


Hi, Timenn. I just noticed your sandbox page and wanted to let you know that I think revamping the Traps page and adding images is a really useful idea. As you've seen, I've been experimenting with ways to update the place pages (i.e., User:Nephele/Sandbox/2) and as part of that was thinking of adding a ton of links to the Traps page (e.g., have "Swinging Blades" always be a link to the Swinging Blades entry on the traps page so anyone exploring that dungeon can easily find out more about the traps). So keep up the good work :) --NepheleTalk 13:37, 2 May 2007 (EDT)

There are a lot of things yet to think on:
  • For now I thought of 4 property types one can always find of traps. (Appearance, traits, action and effect) But are there more useful things to know about traps?
  • Naming, do all traps have "official" names? "Dark Welkynd Stones" is a name I've only found on this wiki so far, though a good name, it isn't a standard.
  • Accurate description of the amount of damage a trap does. It seems hard to predict the amount of physical damage (projectile damage is easier to look up)
But I'll probably launch these questions on the Sandbox' talk page once all traps are done.
For names I don't think there really are official ones. I was leaning towards generally trying to use a name based on the trap's editor name. So that's why I used "Swinging Blade" (editor names ARTrapSwingBladeFAST01, ARTrapSwingBladeSLOW01, ARTrapSwingBladeRANDOM01, etc) instead of "Pendulum Blade." Dark Welkynd Stones, however, are just named "EvilStone" (and various permutations) in the CS; I, too, prefer Dark Welkynd Stone which I think may have originally come from the official game guide.
Figuring out the damage could be challenging. First it will be necessary to make sense of the scripts associated with each trap. In some cases the scripts seem to provide all the info (i.e., Dark Welkynd Stones cast a standard spell; the spells are listed in the scripts). In other cases the scripts only seem to set some variables that are used in unknown ways. For example ARTrapSwingBladeONCE01SCRIPT sets fTrapDamage=20 and fLevelledDamage=1.5. Presumably that means the base damage is 20, but then it's somehow modified by the character's level? But those two parameters seem to be used by a lot of the physical traps, so perhaps just providing those parameters would be a useful starting point. --NepheleTalk 14:34, 2 May 2007 (EDT)
I was wondering about those variables "fTrapDamage" and "fLevelledDamage" (and the others). They seem to be some hardcoded variables, as they don't refer to some setting or object in the CS. I will try to play around a bit with trap damages. Perhaps the damage is as simple as e.g. 20 + PC * 1.5
Some editor names are good enough to use, but a name like "EvilStone" sound to much like a temporary name. "Dark Welkynd Stone" will always remind people of Ayleids. As a final option we could always hold some sort of vote over what names to use. As long as a name speaks to the imagination with the majority of the people, I think it's fine.
I agree with you on the names. I'd say use your best judgement on the names instead of relying on a vote (I can't imagine that there will be cases where anyone has a strong preference). I'll use whatever names you decide upon on the place pages.
I googled and found some answers on the trap damage: Special variables and Trap Update. Can't see anything explaining fLevelledDamage at the moment, though. --NepheleTalk 16:12, 2 May 2007 (EDT)

I tested with a character with "setlevel" to different levels. I discovered the following:

  • Damage is calculated the moment you're hit, and is based on your character's level at that moment.
  • Damage is calculated for each actor. The skeletons who were so nice to get hit received damage dependent on their level.
  • Damage = fTrapDamage + fLevelledDamage * Level.

That last one was pretty obvious after 1-2 tests, but here are the all the results:

Level Damage
1 21.50
2 23.00
3 24.50
4 26.00
5 27.50
10 35.00
15 42.50
20 50.00
25 57.50
50 95.00
75 133.50
100 170.00

The test was done with the Swinging Blades close to the entrance/exit of Lindai (zone 01). The other links you provided explained the other variables used in the scripts nicely. There seems to be no real mystery in traps. :-P About the names, I'll use the editor names unless they sound to silly. --Timenn 16:59, 2 May 2007 (EDT)


You have been given a plateful of cookies!
Seriously, awesome work on the Traps page.
--Deathbane27 13:50, 10 May 2007 (EDT)

Image Upload[edit]

I've accidently deleted some of your most recent upload images, from Image:Earana.jpg to Image:Eris_Senim.jpg (see Special:Log/upload for a list). If you can re-upload them or just e-mail them all to me and I can do it. Note that the page for the image still exists it is just the image file was deleted from the server (you can re-upload it from each page). Sorry for the inconvenience.

Great work on all the images done so far btw... -- Daveh 19:47, 16 May 2007 (EDT)

I've sent you an email with the images. I assumed you have a faster way of replacing them (you being webmaster and all), otherwise it is no problem for me to re-upload the images myself. --Timenn 07:36, 17 May 2007 (EDT)
Thanks...yes, since I just deleted the image files and not the Wiki pages I can just upload and copy them to their correct place. A little faster and less tedious than you uploading on the Wiki one by one. Should be all done now. -- Daveh 08:52, 17 May 2007 (EDT)


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Thanks for all the work you've been doing taking screenshots, revamping pages, and generally helping out! You'll be needing all the calories you can get to have enough energy to make it all the way through to Z on those images ;) --NepheleTalk 11:51, 24 May 2007 (EDT)

A bit late reply from me, but still thanks! As for the screenshots, I've been slowly filling my hard drive with them, but I think there is enough left to get to 'z'. :-) --Timenn 07:32, 30 May 2007 (EDT)

Avoiding Duplicated Effort[edit]

Since we're both on a big upload gig at the moment, we ought to try to co-ordinate. You seem to be working by letter and I'm working (roughly) by area. Which letter are you on at the moment so we don't duplicate effort? Rpeh 12:23, 3 June 2007 (EDT)

At the moment I'm nearly done with 'g'. However the final ones are mostly Quest images and Shivering Isles images (which you try to avoid) so I should be starting with 'h' soon. I try to keep my user page up to date with my progress. If we both upload images quickly after we have made them the time frame in which a duplication may occur will be minimal. As a side note, I normally don't make images in the weekend as I'm working on a different computer (no HDR lighting :-)) --Timenn 12:47, 3 June 2007 (EDT)
Excellent. I'll check your progress page regularly. I wish I could be so organised. I just walk around seeing what needs to be done and taking snapshots. I'm probably about to head South to Bravil and Leyawiin, for what it's worth. I'll stay off the 'g's for the moment though. I won't be uploading quite as many as I have been doing recently. Special circumstances gave me some spare time. Rpeh 13:17, 3 June 2007 (EDT)

I was going to wait until we'd totally finished, but... We have finished! Although I've just got hold of Morrowind...

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Outstanding job on all the images! The site is a brighter place thanks to you. --RpehTalk 00:10, 20 June 2007 (EDT)

Thanks! There were alot of them, but I'm sure we have them all now. If you just got hold of Morrowind then I'll guess I see you in a few months... :-) (Don't forget to play the expansion packs after the main game, you'll discover why) --Timenn 17:26, 20 June 2007 (EDT)

New userbox[edit]

Thought you might be interested in the new {{User Artist}} userbox I just created. You seem to be doing a good job with images, so it'd be nice to get a few other graphics-knowledgeable people to join the little club. There's no real obligations, just add the template to your User page, and anybody who has problems with images will know who to ask for help. Up to you of course, just thought I'd let you know. --TheRealLurlock Talk 15:00, 9 June 2007 (EDT)

I'm interested. I'll add the userbox (or at least the category) to my user page. --Timenn 14:07, 12 June 2007 (EDT)


M'aiq greets you! However, M'aiq could find no other reason than pointing out you're not the only one to carry the Dutch burden (: M'aiqM'aiq thinks talk serves no purpose. 10:07, 18 June 2007 (EDT)

The greetings are returned. I must say I was surprised when I found out there was another Dutchman who has heard of the The Elder Scrolls series. Weren't they all obediently playing World of Warcraft? :-)
Are you from Holland Holland, or Holland in general? --Timenn 12:46, 18 June 2007 (EDT)

Dark Seducers[edit]

I've fixed the image of the male Mazken on the Dark Seducer page as requested. I know I should've cropped it when I first uploaded it, but better late than never. :) --Chris 11:41, 19 October 2007 (EDT)

Well a good wiki is never finished. :-)
Though you could try brightening the image as it is dark now. --Timenn 09:21, 20 October 2007 (EDT)
Okay, done: I agree it looked rather muddy, I forgot to change the weather to something more amenable at the time. I'm slightly perturbed that I seem to have volunteered myself as being responsible for the male Mazken: I'd originally uploaded it to perturb other people, but it seems to have backfired somewhat! --Cbh 11:53, 20 October 2007 (EDT)

Shivering Isles maps[edit]

Hiya. I've been taking a look at the construction set maps (bored, site too slow to use - I'm not trying to pinch another of your projects!) and was wondering about the yellow/green boxes and circles problem. You mentioned on Nephele's talk page that you hadn't really seen any yet but wait until you reach the (-1.-15) area. Do you fancy taking a stab at auto-fixing them? The main problem is the pure yellow/green and I was thinking that averaging out the surrounding 8 pixels where such a pixel exists, excluding any other pure yellow or green ones and using that as the result colour might work. That'll probably take ages but I'm willing to give it a go if you think it's worth a try. Let me know. --RpehTCE 16:22, 22 October 2007 (EDT)

So you can see what I mean, take a look at these:
Before Line Removal
After Line Removal
Before Line Removal
After Line Removal
I'm quite proud of that as a first attempt :-) Took about 30 minutes to process 3919 images but there's probably some optimisation to do there. --RpehTCE 19:07, 22 October 2007 (EDT)

You mean you did all images already? And how can it be there are 3919?
The cleaning up seems to be perfect. Hats of to that! The red markers are not removed yet, but if you can remove the yellow and green lines without leaving gaps then those markers won't be a problem. I've also noticed white markers, check (2,-1).
I hate to bring the bad news, the images you cleaned up haven't had their overlap with other cells removed yet. If you check the bottom-right of the -1,-15 image and the upper-right of the -1,-16 images you can see what I mean. My plan was first exporting all images in the range of (-16,24) to (19,-19) (NW to SE) to .bmp, and compressing to jpg as the final stage. My estimate is that the uncompressed maps will require no more than 500 MiB in total. --Timenn 08:39, 23 October 2007 (EDT)

I'm not quite sure how there are that many, but I just told it to export ALL the images as I couldn't work out how to get the partial export to work (how embarrassing! - got it working now). I hadn't written the code to remove the overlap when I did those ones but I did that this morning. The red marks could probably be removed okay but there are several different colours that need to be looked at. There are other problem artifacts too: (4,2) has some green spots (as well as another white swirl); (9,6) has an orange swirl, (7,-1) has a blue one; (11,5) has some other yellow marks and (-1,10) has some orange squares. The orange and white marks are a problem as the map uses those colours elsewhere so removing them would ruin the actual map. --RpehTCE 09:31, 23 October 2007 (EDT)
Exceptions may be done manually. Like I said, there is nothing wrong with manual labour :-)
Are you using Photoshop? If so, we could exchange our action files. --Timenn 14:01, 23 October 2007 (EDT)
Err... afraid not. I don't own Photoshop. I've written a bit of code to do the process instead. I could send you the C# source - or a compiled version (once I've done a bit of work on the interface). Or I could send over the data in whatever format would work best? --RpehTCE 14:11, 23 October 2007 (EDT)
Having looked at this a bit more, there's not much that can be done about the other artifacts apart from hand-editing (unless someone better at image-manipulation than me wants to take a look!). There are simply too many different red pixels to specify the ones to change, and even if you could specify them they tend to be grouped, meaning there's nothing that could realiti8cally be substituted. As for the various swirls, it's the same argument. Without writing some highly-specific algorithms I doubt there's much else that can be done, unfortunately. --RpehTCE 19:15, 23 October 2007 (EDT)
Okay, I took another stab. Instead of comparing to a specific colour I used the method of least squares to tell whether or not a pixel should be averaged and this is the result (trimmed this time, too). In one or two places there's a tiny loss of detail, but I can now get rid of the blue swirls, the other yellow marks and the red dots. That just leaves white swirls and orange squares. This is probably as good as I can get it.
After Improved Line Removal
After Improved Line Removal
--RpehTCE 09:22, 24 October 2007 (EDT)

Let's see if I can take a look at the white swirls and orange squares. I have to check every cell manually anyway, so I can create an index of all images that have remaining artifacts.
As for the glueing together, that should be my part (before you do all the work :-P) But if that many cells have already been cleaned up, it may save work by using those instead. I've been saving the .dds as .bmp for lossless compression purposes. Would your functions work on .bmp? If you don't mind uploading 300 MiB to me (FTP) then you can send me all the files. Easier would be to have me run your program on my computer with all the files. I don't have a C compiler installed at this moment, but can install one if it is too much hassle to send me a compiled version. Interface is never a problem, a crude command-line based program is good enough. Neither a manual is needed, if it is necessary I'll check the source on how it works. :-) --Timenn 11:43, 25 October 2007 (EDT)

I've been using BMP too so there's no problem there either. It assumes the input will be BMP and writes BMP out again too. I'll send you the source and a compiled version but since at the moment the "User Interface" involves editing the source code to change the paths... it probably needs a bit of work :-) And it is a crude command-line based program too! I'll try to fix that up tonight then upload a ZIP later on. --RpehTCE 12:48, 25 October 2007 (EDT)
Okay, I've added a rough command-line interface to it. Basically you specify an input directory and an output directory. If you do download the free C# compiler from Microsoft, the most important part is the list of colours. Take a look at the source - I'm sure you'll figure it out. This is a bit more obscure than the first version because I optimised it by switching from the built-in pixel functions to LockBits. Much faster. Anyway, enough waffle. You can download it here. --RpehTCE 13:31, 25 October 2007 (EDT)
Thanks, just looking at the syntax has given me enough starting information on how to open and manipulate image files. Tomorrow I will meddle around with a new program that should glue images together, and name them properly. I noticed that your program also trims the images (I had already done that with my set of images) so I have to comment that out before I run your program. I have to download a C compiler now anyway (can always come in handy :) ). --Timenn 15:48, 25 October 2007 (EDT)


Just so you know, there are already Userboxes for Tribunal and Bloodmoon:

User-userbox-Tribunal Logo.png This user is knowledgeable about Tribunal.
User-userbox-Bloodmoon.jpg This user is knowledgeable about Bloodmoon.

These have the proper categories and everything, so they're better than the roll-your-own ones...--TheRealLurlock Talk 16:38, 14 November 2007 (EST)

When I created those the current Tribunal and Bloodmoon Userboxes did not yet exist. But I'll change it and join the masses. :-) --Timenn 11:38, 15 November 2007 (EST)

Template Cleanup[edit]

I was just trying to clean up the usage of two identical templates, Template:Oblivion Effect Entry and Template:Oblivion Spell Effect. Nearly every case of Oblivion_Spell_Effect has now been replaced with Oblivion_Effect_Entry, so I'd like to go ahead and propose deletion for Oblivion_Spell_Effect to prevent future confusion and maintenance problems. Your sandboxes are the last remaining pages where the obsolete template is still being used, specifically on User:Timenn/Sandbox/1/, User:Timenn/Sandbox/2/, and User:Timenn/Sandbox/6/). Any chance you'd be willing to quickly to do a global search replace on those pages? Thanks :) --NepheleTalk 04:03, 18 November 2007 (EST)

Sorry I had not a chance to check the wiki sooner. But the templates have now been replaced. Using the old templates must have been a bad habit picked up from the wrong place. --Timenn 07:50, 19 November 2007 (EST)
Thanks :) And as the person who single-handedly created this confusion I can't exactly complain about anyone else following my bad example ;) --NepheleTalk 12:08, 19 November 2007 (EST)


Mijn Nederland userbox is veel leuker hoor. Als jij hem nou ook gebruikt, sta ik niet zo treurig alleen op die pagina...--Zoidberg 16:56, 29 November 2007 (EST)

For the sake of openness I'll translate the previous comment. (To prove we were not plotting something... :P)
My Netherlands userbox is much nicer. If you use it too, I won't be so lonely on that [category] page.
Actually I prefer my custom text and the custom color (orange is way too strong). But since TheRealLurlock has updated the templates recently to include custom text, I will change it to the default userbox the next time I'm updating my user page. --Timenn < talk > 17:46, 29 November 2007 (EST)

Cookie Time![edit]

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Awesome job with the key page and all those links! Keep it up! --Eshetalk17:22, 4 December 2007 (EST)
Thanks Eshe! I realise now that there are more keys in Oblivion than on my keychain. Searching the site for the key names turned out to be very efficient thanks to the Oblivion Places Redesign Project. --Timenn < talk > 10:29, 5 December 2007 (EST)

Amazing Job![edit]

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GuildKnight says "Great Job!"

Your dedication and diligence to UESPWiki has not gone unnoticed. Your recent contributions are worthy of recognition!

You've really been moving up that Active Users page recently! An early congrats on becoming a patroller, too! --GuildKnightTalk2me 17:39, 4 December 2007 (EST)
Thank you GuildKnight! The edits seem to be coming easier these days. The more you edit the more you see what else can be done. :) --Timenn < talk > 10:29, 5 December 2007 (EST)

For You![edit]

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GuildKnight says "Great Job!"

For your trivia answer!

Have a nice steaming mug of hot chocolate -- in a skull! --GuildKnightTalk2me 17:31, 9 December 2007 (EST)
Thank you! Do you mind if I use the skull for coffee instead of hot chocolate? --Timenn < talk > 09:56, 10 December 2007 (EST)
'Course not... and I'm glad you like it! --GuildKnightTalk2me 23:17, 10 December 2007 (EST)

The Times are a Changin'[edit]

Hiya - if you're going to be starting on the health/magicka formulae for the creatures you might like to use &times; (×) instead of 'x' to signal multiplication (it's also in the list of symbols under the edit box if you get fed up typing it). It looks a bit better than an X and - more applicable for other sites than here - renders better to screen readers. --RpehTCE 10:00, 14 December 2007 (EST)

Ok, I'll use that one instead. I never considered looking beneath the edit box :)
I must admit I've been reluctant to use the cartesian product sign. The mathematician in me tells me to rather use the dot product (*) instead. I know there is no actual difference with simple scalars, but it would be more in line with how calculators on computers use the asterisk for multiplication. --Timenn < talk > 10:15, 14 December 2007 (EST)
How embarrassing - I just had to look up how to do cross products on vectors - and this from someone who once wrote a library in assembler to handle n-dimensional cross products using complex numbers... Anyway. It's just my personal preference, so feel free to ignore it if you wish! As I said "you might like"... on the other hand, you might not! :) --RpehTCE 10:23, 14 December 2007 (EST)
Another reason why I don't like the cartesian product signs. They remind me of the awful calculations I had to do. Dot products are usually simpler. :)
I will stick to using the cartesian product signs, as all other formulaes on this wiki use them. If I wanted to change the world to use the dot product instead of cartesian products in these cases this is not the best place to start. :) --Timenn < talk > 10:41, 14 December 2007 (EST)
Technically, for dot product, I think you're supposed to use the · symbol, or possibly the •. * became the accepted symbol for multiplication way back in the early days of ASCII, and is still used mainly because there's no × key on most keyboards, and you can't use 'x', because it might be a variable name. (Back in the day, 1-letter variable names were the norm. I think Integer BASIC only allowed a maximum of 2 characters in variable names.) Anyhow, as far as UESP is concerned, we stick with the × symbol just for consistancy. We also have a ÷ available for division, though that doesn't get used much. I think we still prefer the / for that. --TheRealLurlock Talk 12:11, 14 December 2007 (EST)
Well, I wouldn't mind if we all started using the '·' sign. But that would just be nitpicking. If we started that, we might as well consider removing all division signs, and start using the negative powers (e.g. 4 · 2-1 instead of 4/2). Think of the mess if we started using that notation for square roots as well. :) --Timenn < talk > 15:47, 14 December 2007 (EST)

Merry Xmas![edit]

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Season's Greetings!

Hope you have an awesome Christmas! Keep up the hard work! --GuildKnightTalk2me 18:58, 24 December 2007 (EST)