Lore talk:Etymology

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Etymologies[edit]

Discussion begun at UESPWiki:Community Portal#Etymologies --GKtalk2me 20:16, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

Okay, I've created [[Lore:Etymology]] as a stub for now. Is this style fine or should there be more or less information? rpeh •TCE 11:48, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

I added Morrowind and Oblivion etymologies there. — Unsigned comment by 93.139.122.250 (talk) on 24 March 2010
How about making words as direct link to its own article like Arano Plantation. — Unsigned comment by 78.1.148.41 (talk) on 24 March 2010
I deliberately didn't do that... but I'm not sure why. That would be a good addition. rpeh •TCE 17:28, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
Perhaps now category object and where is seen isn't needed anymore as could be seen directly from article.
I like this format. The table, as done in the first section of the page, looks good; plus, I love sortable tables! It should work well for those interested, because the etymologies by whatever interests them most. --GKtalk2me 20:16, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
(Comment moved from Community Portal)
Many of these 'etymologies' are anything but. I get that people like looking for similarities in words and that there's a fun aspect to it, but most of the ones posted in the Morrowind pages are guesswork linking names with random languages, and are spurious additions. I think they should be removed from these pages and only put on the new Lore page. Hecerinde 04:19, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

<- I think that's the intent here. In fact, I'll make it my project tomorrow to do exactly that. I think all the existing ones have already been copied here, but I'll double-check as I go. Robin HoodTalk 04:37, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

As promised, I'm currently working on making sure that all of the recently-added etymology content has been moved here and patrolled. In the interests of efficiency, I'm not going to make judgement calls, I'm simply removing it all from the individual pages after checking that it exists here. If there's a strong link, please feel free to revert my changes. Robin HoodTalk 22:10, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
I'm wondering whether this page shouldn't be pruned as well. I mean, some of these etymologies are really very tenous. Like the Dunmer called Arvela Falas being linked to Galician - there seems to be no basis for the link other than that the two words 'falas' are spelled the same. The Dunmer's name fits the form shared by most other Dunmer NPCs and we don't see widespread links to Galician for other names (indeed, rather to a dozen different languages!). So basically, the entry is just telling us that Falas the surname sounds like a Galician verb spelled the same way - this is not an etymological link, just a phonetic one. I don't think stuff like that has value to this wiki, it's too random. There ARE some worthwhile ones though, like Nord-Scandinavian links or Imperial names linked with Latin and Romance languages, etc. Also the Assyrian/Sumerian derivations of some native Morrowind names and places, which are lifted directly from its history and mythology. Those are informative and worthwhile. But the spurious guesswork entries - do we really need those? Am I just being a pedantic spoilsport? I dunno. I think it should be decided what should be the standard for the page though. Hecerinde 03:44, 9 April 2010 (UTC)
The page is indeed still under the process of refinement. If you find etymologies that don't seem to fit, feel free to remove them. You are absolutely no spoilsport, I think the majority of editors feels that this page could use some more finetuning. --Timenn-<talk> 09:43, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

"Etymologies" removed[edit]

I agree that many of these "etymologies" listed are not really relevant. I've removed the ones that don't even have a tenuous link to the person/place/item (listed below along with the previously listed etymology). If anyone feels that any of these are actually linked to the subject, feel free to re-add them. Similarly, if anyone feels that there are more that aren't related to the subject, feel free to remove them. I've left any that had even a tiny possibility of being related to the subject in question. I've also removed any that were only "Roman name".

--GKtalk2me 22:14, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

Suurotan -sun tan/skin he was high elf and had yellow skin

Bravilis -of gamble could be because the town was poor

Selene is personal name derived from Greek word for moon

Kvatch -crushed, pressed most of town was destroyed at the beginning of game

Viator -traveler even if there is no connection to the character exact word appears in Latin

Skogsdrake is Swedish for forest dragon this has been confirmed on

http://forums.uesp.net/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=16608&sid=6a93a989b603e7c0ff42104648dfe147

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Bloodmoon:Skogsdrake_Barrow

Meanings can be true even if appear to have no reference like Fort Black Boot because it has no black boot in it.

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Fort_Black_Boot

Akkadian names are recognized in this article:

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Easter_Eggs

Faelian -cat because he is active late at night and also one quest describes him as lonely wanderer.

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:The_Lonely_Wanderer

Halit mine was removed 'αλς (hals), 'αλος (halos) -salt λιθος (lithos) -stone but it is based on Halite mineral with same derivation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halite

http://webmineral.com/data/Halite.shtml (this page explains derivation)

Ajira -agile, quick, rapid she is Khajiit which are known for their agility

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Khajiit

Why were Roman names removed this is also part of etymology, before entries were separated into Morrowind and Oblivion categories now all is mixed this is only making confusion in my opinion.

Section Break[edit]

(this was too long to edit easily)

The whole idea of this page was to create a page of "dubious quality" where all etymologies could be listed, while keeping the more plausible ones on the actual page: see my post here and the subsequent consensus for the idea. For that matter, see the intro to the page: "Please note that these etymologies are speculative, but have some link to the subject in question. Entries should not be placed on this page unless there is a clear link between the subject and the etymology."

Can we put all the deleted items back, please? rpeh •TCE 18:05, 19 April 2010 (UTC)

Apologies, I must've misunderstood the conversation. When the community as a whole recognizes a word's derivation, then it makes sense to mention it on the article. When it's a tenuous link, this page seems appropriate. I don't see any reason why words that have zero relevance to the subject in question should be mentioned anywhere on the wiki. As I said previously, anyone who disagrees with my edits should feel free to revert them however they see fit. This page is completely subjective, and so will probably always be under refinement.
Also, regarding the removal of the Roman names; it seems too general to point it out every time. Perhaps it would be more appropriate to mention that "many parts of the game, including names of people, places, and things, are derived from Roman names", or something similar, at the top of the page? --GKtalk2me 23:09, 19 April 2010 (UTC)
I posted text from 26 March so everything should be back now as before.

Removal of historical/fictional refrences[edit]

There is a number of historical, and fictional refrences to people and places in this article. I propose we remove them, the defintion of etymology is the study to discover the meaning of words, not about how the words have been used in stories or events. Such as,"Brawen, galeic/celtric godess of the sea". This entry has nothing to do with the word Branwen, only its use in mythology. There is a section dedicated to historical and culture refrences, we should move these to there.

On a second note, this page is a disaster of un-organzied endless translations, I would like to organzise them in two seperate pages; Morrowind, and Oblivion. Then organize them by people, places, items, etc.. Western3589 03:06, 22 January 2011 (UTC)

I propose a third page. A general section for over lapping terms like provinces. Why would Morrowind only be relevant to the Morrowind section? It was also mentioned multiple times in Oblivion, and Arena (probably the other games too. I'm not talking about them). My point is general Elder Scrolls terms should be separated from the etymology of specific characters in other pages (if we do end up doing this) --Alpha Kenny Buddy 03:17, 22 January 2011 (UTC)
Agreed, rpeh would be the one too 'okay' this, however. Western3589 03:29, 22 January 2011 (UTC)
I get one !vote, the same as anybody else. At the moment, though, that vote would be "oppose". This page is essentially a sink for all the irrelevant etymological notes people insist on adding. Creating a second seems excessive. Etymology is about discovering "the derivation of a word." (dictionary.com) so while I understand the point about historical and fictional references, I disagree with it. We're talking about the way the words got into the Elder Scrolls universe, so even references could as etymologies in this case.
Splitting it up into MW/OB might make sense if the page gets much bigger, but for now I'd rather keep it the way it is. rpeh •TCE 13:54, 22 January 2011 (UTC)
I'm usually fairly lenient when it comes to keeping references that seem plausible, but I have to agree with rpeh in this case...many of the etymologies seem more along the lines of "maybe possibly if you toss it around in your head long enough this might be where the names come from", so in that vein, I don't see expanding this into three pages as the way to go. I can see moving this to MW:Etymology and OB:Etymology, but I'm also fine with it just staying in Lore too, since sometimes the names overlap between games. Robin Hoodtalk 22:04, 22 January 2011 (UTC)
You can see by my previous comments in the above discussion that I'd prefer to remove a ton of the content on this article. I can (kind of) see the point in mentioning something like "Skjorta" meaning shirt since she sells clothes, but let's be honest, so many of these have no relation to the subject. Sure, "etymology" is about the derivation of a word, but why are we trying to document that on the wiki? It has no relevance to the game(s) at all. So, for whatever it's worth, my opinion is that this article is way to big, and I wouldn't be opposed to deleting it altogether. As far as the organization of the list, it makes more sense to me for it to be a single table with sortable columns, so readers could decide for themselves whether to sort it by what it is, which game it's from, alphabetical order, etc. --GKtalk2me 22:35, 22 January 2011 (UTC)
My preference would be delete too, but the trouble is that people insist on adding this garbage elsewhere. As long as this page exists, we can keep it off the important pages and keep it in this one place where it can be safely ignored. Yes, it's too long but splitting it will only mean more links to pages that are irrelevant.
As long as the page exists, it should contain everything, but if anybody wants to start a deletion review, I'll support deletion. rpeh •TCE 22:44, 22 January 2011 (UTC)