Lore talk:Aetherion

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Daedric Titan[edit]

Legoless, I've checked the source again. The closest I could find to a statement that Daedric Titans were created in the Planemeld is "for in our Lord and Master's upcoming Planemeld campaign, the Titans will be released for the first time upon the hated mortals of Tamriel." This statement seems to say that the Daedric Titan was created at the end of the Dragon War: "But upon a time that was and will be the ever-pernicious mortals of Tamriel betrayed these their natural masters, and those who were not slain were driven into hidden refuge. Then one such Dragon, a greater Dov named Boziikkodstrun, exerted his nigh-divine will in an attempt to fly beyond the borders of the Mundus. And though he did not succeed, his effort was valorous and remarkable, and impinged upon the attention of Molag Bal himself." This makes me think that it's not really a discrepancy. - KINMUNETALK﴿ 03:14, 9 September 2016 (UTC)

The source says that the first Titan climbed the Endless Stair, which was built by the Mad Architect in preparation for the Planemeld (source), which places his creation sometime after the Soulburst, i.e. 2E 578 (source) or later. This is a big discrepancy and needs to be noted, although it's obviously being disregarded by ZOS. —Legoless (talk) 04:00, 9 September 2016 (UTC)
Then you need to cite to these sources, not only Daedra Dossiers, Legoless. Tib (talk) 14:37, 11 December 2016 (UTC)
The time that the titans were created is undefined, what is defined is the time that titans first appeared on Tamriel, which is during the Planemeld campaign. I am not aware of any information which shows the dossier to be inaccurate beyond the discrepancies so as of now it should be accepted at face value. The dossier states without question that when the first titan appeared it ran up the endless stair at Molag Bals summoning. We also know that the endless stair was commissioned by Bal after the Soulburst. Combine this with the knowledge that Aetherion died in the first era, and you have a massive discrepancy. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 15:21, 11 December 2016 (UTC)
Which is why I was interested when the Endless Stair was built, and would like to read about it. (The loading screen of Endless Stair says nothing about time frame, nor does the Mad Architect-related dialogue inside Vaults of Madness.)
Besides, Aetherion's appearance is only a technical one. There is no discrepancy between a) the weird experiments of the Nedes and b) Molag Bal and his titans. Just because his skin in ESO is similar to a Daedric Titan in ESO, doesn't mean anything because he isn't related to Molag Bal. Otherwise it appears we claim that Aetherion is a Daedric Titan, but he isn't, he is a Celestial. Tib (talk) 17:06, 11 December 2016 (UTC)
To be honest I can't find the source for the architect being commissioned after the Soulburst. However the dossier still states unequivically that they have not appeared on Tamriel before the Planemeld, and also that they were created by Molag Bal. The issue is that Aetherion has the appearance of something that it would only have knowledge of if it had visited Coldharbour (assuming that they even existed then). Putting it down to the experiments of the Nedes is a leap of logic and a pointless exercise to remove a note about a discrepancy, which by all evidence ZeniMax is ignoring the dossier's assertions given that Aetherion is not the only Titan with a background predating the evidential creation date. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 17:49, 11 December 2016 (UTC)

() Aetherion isn't the only pre-Planemeld Titan, so this discrepancy can't be explained away by reuse of art assets. Also, the other Celestials at Skyreach Pinnacle are specifically named after Daedra, so it seems certain to me that Aetherion is meant to take the form of a Titan, rather than just being a generic great winged beast.

In addition to the dossier stating that Titans only appeared on Tamriel for the first time during the Planemeld, the following loading screen proves that the Titans didn't even exist prior to the Planemeld: "There are whispers among the Soul Shriven that the Planar Vortex and the Endless Stair were built for Molag Bal by the Mad Architect himself." The Planar Vortex only came into existence when the Planemeld began, since it's the melding of Tamriel and Coldharbour. The Endless Stair is the last line of defence to protect the Vortex. I don't have a source for that, but it's repeatedly stated in dialogue, and this journal entry makes it clear that the Stair serves a defensive purpose.

We can assert: (1) the Architect created the Stair and the Vortex together, (2) the Vortex was created by the melding of Tamriel and Coldharbour, (3) the Planemeld could only have begun ~578, and (4) Titans first entered Tamriel ~581 when the Anchors fell in Cyrodiil. Therefore, we can state: without harvesting souls and deploying Anchors, the Vortex would not yet exist; when Boziikkodstrun "bounded nimbly up the Endless Stair", he did so only a few years before the time of ESO.

If ZOS continue to contradict that lore, we may eventually have to dismiss the dossier. For now, I think a note explaining the discrepancy should be enough. —Legoless (talk) 19:22, 11 December 2016 (UTC)

Nedes experimented with both beasts and Daedra though. Thank you both Legoless and Silencer for the replices, and Legoless for adding some additional sources to the page. I have a few other questions about the other things, so I'll be writing on Legoless' page, I hope it's okay. Tib (talk) 21:24, 11 December 2016 (UTC)
Just wanted to note that this wouldn't be the first time ZOS were inconsistent with chronologies. --Enodoc (talk) 09:33, 13 December 2016 (UTC)
There are quite a few similar discrepancies: King Maxevian's reign overlapping with that of King Anton I, the Manes existing centuries before Rid-Thar-ri'Datta, Varen Aquilarios being a duke of Chorrol before his origin was changed to the Gold Coast... For now we can note the Titan discrepancy here, but we might eventually have to choose a "mainstream" version. --Vordur Steel-Hammer (TINV1K) 18:39, 13 December 2016 (UTC)

() Well, can't argue away "King of Daggerfall". Regardless of what notes the article will include now, I do think this is an interesting question, even though it is just a tiny bit of lore, and we cannot really come up with anything more meaningful that has already been said. I wish it was possible to ask the official writers about it.. Maybe a tweet to Lawrence Shick :D Poor Lawrence! Silencer: Exactly, there is no source for the Mad Architect's doings + Are you sure that technicality is a bad way to go about it? In the discussion about Nhalan being a Nede/Draugr, I had to accept his "technical" race as Draugr because he "looks" like one, despite sources saying exactly what happened to him (he was cursed by nereids). Why cannot I apply same technicality to Aetherion? ;) Legoless: it's the nr. 1 and 4 that could be either one way or some other, seeing they are based on assumptions. They could be true, but we don't know. I went to the Endless Stair and there is no implication on the purpose of the place or when it was built. So it seems equally possible that the Stairs were built at that time, or before that. Using the opinions above, the Daedra Dossiers seem to imply that it was built before that. What we know is:

  • At the latest, Nedic experiments happened at the time of Yokudan invasion as they served a defence purpose
  • Mad Architect was a Breton architect in life, working in Wayrest
  • The fall of first Orsinium (-> Zandadunoz)

The discrepancy is almost certainly still there, but on another premise. Quite certainly less extreme though. While Aetherion might still remain a mystery, Zandadunoz doesn't have to be (hence I find him less interesting). Tib (talk) 15:37, 14 December 2016 (UTC)

The dossier still gives us the statement that the titans had never been to Tamriel before the Planemeld, that only leaves open the question of when Molag Bal made them in Coldharbour. There is no basis to assume that the Nedes managed to replicate a being that they had never seen, without also assuming that they visited Coldharbour and returned, something few mortals have ever done. The summary box in gamespaces has nothing to do with this discussion, in Skyrim Sheogorath is listed as a Breton, but in lore that technical necessity is rightly ignored for what it is, something to facilitate his appearance. Similarly here, Aetherion appears as a titan but is considered a Celestial. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 17:19, 14 December 2016 (UTC)