Daggerfall talk:Dark Brotherhood

Usage of game specific information

Shouldn't game specific articles stick to the information of their according games? The informations used in the latest independent introductions for the major factions were taken directly from the game itself, e.g. informations one got when asking questions about these factions. In case of the Dark Brotherhood, Sithis is nowhere mentioned in Daggerfall and the Brotherhood worships Mephala instead, see Daggerfall:Oblivion and the discharge the questgiver of the DB gives you when you are embarking on a quest.--PLRDLF 11:54, 7 December 2008 (EST)

I agree. This was brought over from the lore article. I know a lot of these have been brought over from Lore articles; it might be better to quit doing that because someone fumbling around in the lore section might change something and inadvertently dump a lot of information here. If you have copy-pastey stuff from Daggerfall describing the (whatever) you might as well place it in the appropriate spot rather than have these lore inclusions. --Timmeh ^Talk 16:21, 8 December 2008 (EST)

To explain.... I felt that this version of the article needed some serious work. The introductory paragraph seemed disorganized, jumping back and forth between different topics. It was unnecessarily vague about the main topic, namely what exactly the Dark Brotherhood is. Finally, the tone of the content was informal and non-encyclopedic in style, with a lot of phrases that contributed no real information ("they must be doing something right", "it's one thing to make a declaration"). I started by spending twenty minutes trying to re-organize the existing content before realizing that I shouldn't have to spend that much time coming up with a basic description of the Dark Brotherhood: the reason why we transclude Lore descriptions is to save editors the trouble of having to repeatedly rewrite the same description.

If there are quotes taken directly from the game that would add to the article, then I think they should be included in a way that clearly identifies them as quotes: italicized and separated from the standard paragraphs. That makes it clear to everyone that the content is quoted. In particular, it ensures that other editors don't rewrite the quote when cleaning up the article. Although dialogue-based quotes can add some colour to the article, their style is inappropriate for direct inclusion into explanatory paragraphs. The main content paragraphs should be well-written, encyclopedia-style paragraphs that concisely summarize the relevant content, but in-game quotations fail to provide that type of content.

Including content from the Lore articles does mean that it's possible for changes made to one article to have consequences in several places. However, that has as many benefits as risks. A factual error, typo, or poorly-written sentence only has to be fixed in one place instead of many places. That's exactly why transclusions are useful. It's not obvious to me why the Daggerfall articles are so different from the rest of the site as to make Lore transclusions irrelevant. Especially at this point, the majority of readers browsing the Daggerfall articles are likely to be readers who have played Morrowind and/or Oblivion, possibly even before ever starting to play Daggerfall. Therefore if there are differences between Daggerfall factions and the Lore articles, I'm inclined to think that the difference needs to be explicitly pointed out and explained. Therefore, hiding the fact that the Dark Brotherhood is better known for worshipping Sithis than Mephala doesn't fundamentally make the article more useful to readers.

In short, it seems to me that the issues discussed here can best be addressed by adding to the article; I don't really see how deleting the standard Lore-based DB descriptionwould improve this article. If you want to just delete all of the Lore-based information, then the article loses useful information. If you want to copy that information here instead of transcluding it, then you lose any future improvements that are made to the Lore article. If the problem with the Lore transclusion is just the single sentence about Sithis, there are more ways to address the problem than just deleting the entire Lore transclusion (keep the sentence and explain it; reword the Lore article to be suitable for Daggerfall; add an {{#ifeq:{{NAMESPACE}}...}} to comment out that one sentence; etc.).

There are always exceptions to the rule, i.e., cases where the Lore articles cannot be adapted for transclusion. But what I've seen discussed here doesn't convince me that this is one of those cases. --Nephele^Talk 22:47, 8 December 2008 (EST)

Unfairly expelled? Please help!

After I joined the Dark Brotherhood in Daenia, I went to the neighboring region to do my first quest for them. I got a quest in Oxward(?) to kill a rogue mage in a dungeon, which I completed well within the time limit and with no quests in between. But when I go back to turn the quest in, I get expelled! Talking to the quest giver afterwards will allow me to turn in the quest, and the "Join Guild" option is highlighted. Clicking on it gives the character info menu's description of my strength stat, but then closes the menu.

What the hell is wrong here? The only thing I could have possibly done that MIGHT have had something to do with this was asking a civilian about the quest giver in dialogue, but that can't be grounds for expulsion! Sometimes other Brotherhood members tell me that "I may be allowed to rejoin someday, but for now I am anathema." I thought you couldn't rejoin the Dark Brotherhood once expelled? What is going on, and how do I stop from being expelled? ThuumofReason 20:14, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

I have never played it but Daggerfall is notorious for having glitches and bugs in every corner of the game. Sorry I can't give you a better answer but I didn't want to leave your question unanswered. RIM 20:24, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

Years delay'd response, but: if this happens to you, you need a reputation editor like DagRep available on the mods and downloads page. After putting it in your Dagger directory, verify your reputation with the Dark Brotherhood is above Zero with a save file prior to talking to a DB member. Your initial rep with the Dark Brotherhood is sometimes glitchy, depending on what other quests you've already accepted and done to affect your rep with them and how much they delay their reaction to it. Furthermore, you cannot rejoin the Dark Brotherhood after being expelled, becoming a vampire, or a lycanthrope. 76.5.187.18 08:02, 20 March 2013 (GMT)

Rank promotion - undiscovered Dungeon map?

Ever when I get a higher Rank is there no new Dungeon on my map. How does this work? --Daggerfall is the best game what was ever made! (talk) 07:24, 30 January 2014 (GMT)

You must search for the new dungeon on your own on your fast-travel map. When a NPC gives you the location of a dungeon as part of a reward or promotion, it will just be revealed on your map. If you've already discovered the location of twenty other dungeons in the current region, it may be difficult to find just this new one, that's true, but this is how this feature works, this can't be changed. Finding a dungeon map on the other hand will tell you at least the name of this new dungeon, the NPC however won't even give you the name.--PLRDLF (talk) 20:59, 30 January 2014 (GMT)

Quest with the Night Mother

Any particular reason this one is not included? I've gotten this quest twice in a row but it does not appear anywhere on the wiki. — Unsigned comment by 185.8.112.39 (talk) at 20:40 on 24 February 2017 (UTC)

There does not appear to be a quest featuring the Night Mother in the base game's quests. Do you possibly have a mod installed that offers third party quests? If so, those aren't documented here. Echo (talk) 22:53, 24 February 2017 (UTC)